Zuma/Daimons

[vanKaya]

Or alternatively, you could read what SMA means in the context of BM, and accept that your expectations where unrealistic.

From the wiki on SMA:

"Non-European Realm/Religion Concepts
While these are acceptable on other islands, we are very, very sceptical about them on any island where we are looking for a serious medieval atmosphere. Some will be ok, a little bit of orient can spice things up, but the vast majority would only dilute and disturb the atmosphere. That goes especially for any asian or american concepts. Basically anything that the middle ages did not have much contact with. Again, there are other islands in BattleMaster where these ideas can be explored."

What this would imply to a new character who is seeking an SMA oriented island is that since orientalism and americanisms are discouraged, probably interplanetary demigods wont be present. In fact, a new player would probably assume such a thing fell under the nothing silly and unrealistic aspect of the SMA guidelines.

However, I'm not saying that we should get rid of Daemons because they are not SMA, all I'm saying is include a notice on the Dwilight intro that says "Strong presence of Daimons (powerful GM faction) on Dwilight".

I know that if I had seen that, I probably wouldn't have gone to Dwilight as I prefer the Player vs. player playstyle.

[vanKaya]

Don't roleplay? Please don't come onto the forums and just lie to people. Unless I miss it, as I do have a lot of messages to go through every day, I interact with everyone that tries to interact with me.

That also is another lie. Perhaps other players spread propaganda within the game that states that the Zuma demand complete obedience, but that has certainly never been the case.

Please be clear when you come onto these forums exactly where you get your facts from or make it clear when it is just speculation based on your personal assumptions.

My understanding of events:

A new player from Terran accidently roams into Zuma lands, does no damage than returns.

Haktoo makes a demand (via Garett) that the player go to Volcano Nightscree.

Hireshmont complies with Haktoo's request and sends the player off. In addition, Hireshmont tells Garett (via Zuma Triunists) that Hireshmont does not wish to correspond with him and that Garett should either (a) speak to Terran's ambassadors in Nightscree or (b) meet with Hireshmont face to face in Chesney ( the reason Hireshmont said this to Garett is because the feeling around Terran is that Garett can't be trusted)

Next, the Zuma invade Terran with 12,000 CS and attack two regions. So either:

A: Garett misunderstood the message and thought Hireshmont asked to meet with Daemons in Chesney. Which means the Zuma have an awful ambassador.

or

B: The Daemons are extremely sensitive and demand utmost respect and humility from the human underlings around them. Showing any contempt towards them results in indefensible military strikes.

Again, though. This isn't a criticism against the Zuma GM or the initial idea or anything. Im just letting everyone know that a lot of the players who are having interactions with the Daimons, including me, are not exactly having a good time about it. If you want to ignore those people and keep playing the Daemons in the same way, thats your call, but this whole "if you dont like it, quit" attitude isn't exactly healthy for player retention.

[De-Legro]

From the wiki on SMA:

"Non-European Realm/Religion Concepts
While these are acceptable on other islands, we are very, very sceptical about them on any island where we are looking for a serious medieval atmosphere. Some will be ok, a little bit of orient can spice things up, but the vast majority would only dilute and disturb the atmosphere. That goes especially for any asian or american concepts. Basically anything that the middle ages did not have much contact with. Again, there are other islands in BattleMaster where these ideas can be explored."

What this would imply to a new character who is seeking an SMA oriented island is that since orientalism and americanisms are discouraged, probably interplanetary demigods wont be present. In fact, a new player would probably assume such a thing fell under the nothing silly and unrealistic aspect of the SMA guidelines.

However, I'm not saying that we should get rid of Daemons because they are not SMA, all I'm saying is include a notice on the Dwilight intro that says "Strong presence of Daimons (powerful GM faction) on Dwilight".

I know that if I had seen that, I probably wouldn't have gone to Dwilight as I prefer the Player vs. player playstyle.

Show me where is says Dwilight is suddenly not a low-fantasy island? When you read the entire page, including the Do's and Dont's it should be clear that SMA is mostly about how you interact with other players, not an attempt to introduce historical accuracy to the setting. If you are going to take a single section of text, and not apply to it the context of the surrounding text, well you have a promising career as a Evangelical Christian, or a Political Commentator on FOX.

If people would stop poking the Zuma, they could go back to being that mysterious quiet faction that they were for YEARS. You know back when people used to whine that there was no point to them, that they never did anything and were boring.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Show me where is says Dwilight is suddenly not a low-fantasy island? When you read the entire page, including the Do's and Dont's it should be clear that SMA is mostly about how you interact with other players, not an attempt to introduce historical accuracy to the setting. If you are going to take a single section of text, and not apply to it the context of the surrounding text, well you have a promising career as a Evangelical Christian, or a Political Commentator on FOX.

If people would stop poking the Zuma, they could go back to being that mysterious quiet faction that they were for YEARS. You know back when people used to whine that there was no point to them, that they never did anything and were boring.

You just disproved your own argument when you said that SMA is mostly about how you interact with other players. Not mysterious NPC factions.

[De-Legro]

You just disproved your own argument when you said that SMA is mostly about how you interact with other players. Not mysterious NPC factions.

Um yeah sure. That is almost as logical as the stuff I've written for the Manifest Path

[songqu88@gmail.com]

lol, this just goes to show what I have often repeated (And at risk of being labelled obvious by the usual suspect...)

You can't make everyone happy. Most of the time you can't make anyone happy.

[De-Legro]

lol, this just goes to show what I have often repeated (And at risk of being labelled obvious by the usual suspect...)

You can't make everyone happy. Most of the time you can't make anyone happy.

You miss the important aspect though. While you can't make everyone happy, the real problem is both sides will always insist that their experience is more relevant and valid. You only need to look at Star : War Galaxies to see how trying to please on largish group of players results in pissing an even larger portion of the players.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Um yeah sure. That is almost as logical as the stuff I've written for the Manifest Path

How so? You just said yourself that SMA is about interacting with other players. How are we supposed to do that if all we're worried about is some unknowable Zuma, who aren't other players, constantly intervening with the realms of the players we are supposed to be interacting with?

[De-Legro]

How so? You just said yourself that SMA is about interacting with other players. How are we supposed to do that if all we're worried about is some unknowable Zuma, who aren't other players, constantly intervening with the realms of the players we are supposed to be interacting with?

By ensuring that you aren't annoying the Zuma? You know how it used to be, when everyone pretty much ignored them and they pretty much ignored us? Since SMA is all about such little things, like using titles, not sending excessive OOC message etc. I see no reason why SMA can't be in full force even if the Zuma were stomping on every realm at the same time. Plenty of chance to send SMA appropriate letters about how doomed we all are.

"This is our term for roleplaying the game as it is meant to be. That does not mean pages upon pages of text, but rather playing your character as if he were a real human being in a real world. You can be as short or elaborate as you want to in doing that, but try to be realistic."

What the Zuma do and don't do is largely irrelevant to playing your character in this manner.

[Gustav Kuriga]

By ensuring that you aren't annoying the Zuma? You know how it used to be, when everyone pretty much ignored them and they pretty much ignored us? Since SMA is all about such little things, like using titles, not sending excessive OOC message etc. I see no reason why SMA can't be in full force even if the Zuma were stomping on every realm at the same time. Plenty of chance to send SMA appropriate letters about how doomed we all are.

"This is our term for roleplaying the game as it is meant to be. That does not mean pages upon pages of text, but rather playing your character as if he were a real human being in a real world. You can be as short or elaborate as you want to in doing that, but try to be realistic."

What the Zuma do and don't do is largely irrelevant to playing your character in this manner.

More like there was no one in their general area. It wasn't that people were trying to ignore them, but now there are actually realms close by.

[vanKaya]

If you are going to take a single section of text, and not apply to it the context of the surrounding text, well you have a promising career as a Evangelical Christian, or a Political Commentator on FOX.

Nice, but I've been civil so let's leave personal attacks out of this. (also, if I was an evangical Christian that'd be a really unnecessary attack against my religion....)

You miss the important aspect though. While you can't make everyone happy, the real problem is both sides will always insist that their experience is more relevant and valid.

I never claimed my experience was more relevant, simply that I was not having a positive experience, and that others were in the same boat as me.

Also, De Legro, I'm not here to attack the idea of Daemons on Dwi or the Zuma GM. It's just that the way they interact with the players is something that detracts from the funness of the game for me. I think I'm not alone in this. The interference from the Zuma is significantly changing the spirit of the game for me and now I feel like I'm not playing the PvP focussed game I want to be.

I'm just stating my thoughts, so I don't know why you're trying to change my mind by attacking my opinions.

If you're thinknig, "If you don't like it, quit, because it's fine for everyone else"

Well, maybe you're right, and perhaps I'll have better luck with a more PvP oriented game.

[vanKaya]

How so? You just said yourself that SMA is about interacting with other players. How are we supposed to do that if all we're worried about is some unknowable Zuma, who aren't other players, constantly intervening with the realms of the players we are supposed to be interacting with?

I think this is a big part of the problem.

I get that the Zuma want to be dark, mysterious and unknowable, but the fact that OOC info is as scarce as IC info is an annoying and unnecessary addition to the Zuma's "flair".

Also, if there is only one GM controlling every Daemon, this is a serious design flaw.

[De-Legro]

More like there was no one in their general area. It wasn't that people were trying to ignore them, but now there are actually realms close by.

Terran has been where it is for MANY years sure it is larger but some of their core regions are the closest regions to the Zuma. Before Barca we had Ordenstaat. Caerwyn was also reasonably close to the Zuma borders. Asylon is the only realm that I can see in a position near the Zuma that wasn't pretty much there when I started, and even it heralds back to 2009, and was founded only after extensive interaction with the Zuma. Its not like the Western continent was empty before now.

Trust me back in 2008-2009 it was rare that a character would try to approach the Zuma, we in D'Hara did it a bit. Players sought them out, players tried to get them involved in the larger dealings of Dwilight, whether the attempt was to get the Zuma to fight some enemy (yes I am aware of attempts to convince them of this since 2008 at least. A faction in D'Hara tried it to get them to war against both Terran and SA at one stage), for economical gain or just for information.

My own take on the Zuma has always been that they represent the "dragon" factor of Dwilight. Only where in RL the mere rumours and belief in dragons was enough, in a game like this to simulate the fear such a mythical monster generated, they actually need to exist.

[De-Legro]

I think this is a big part of the problem.

I get that the Zuma want to be dark, mysterious and unknowable, but the fact that OOC info is as scarce as IC info is an annoying and unnecessary addition to the Zuma's "flair".

Also, if there is only one GM controlling every Daemon, this is a serious design flaw.

What is the design flaw specifically. Part of the problem is that historically in BM being a GM has been a rather thankless and time consuming task. Further finding players that can actually play a GM in a fair and balanced manner can be a difficult task itself.

[Geronus]

What amazes me is that the viewpoints of the players who are forced to deal with the Zuma regularly by dint of proximity are so consistently ignored, dismissed, poo pooed, or outright attacked on these forums. The point of the Zuma, presumably, is to add something to the player experience and hopefully not solely to provide some GM with a toy to play with for his own amusement. Given that fact, I would think that player feedback would be taken seriously.

I recognize that the natural reaction to criticism, especially when said criticism is not always delivered in a constructive manner, is to become defensive. However, this tendency also leads those who are being criticized to dismiss *all* criticism as invalid, when that's not the case. Clearly the manner in which the Zuma are run is a source of increasing frustration to the players who are having to deal with them. I would think that a review of why this is the case might be in order, along with some honest consideration of how the experience could be improved for everyone involved. After all, what's more important, the plot or the players? It sounds to me like the Zuma are losing the players. When players start throwing up their hands and talk about deleting their characters out of frustration, something isn't working. This is the point where I, as a GM running an RPG for some friends expressing this level of frustration, would be engaging in some serious introspection and reconsidering my entire campaign.