Zuma/Daimons

[De-Legro]

You're asking us to make suggestions when we have absolutely no knowledge of the Zuma's purpose. Without knowing why they were put on Dwilight in the first place, it's a bit hard to suggest options since anything we come up with might defeat their purpose. But for what it's worth here are my observations:

1. The Zuma are overpowered.

2. This is probably to deter us from getting it into our heads to try to destroy them, forcing us to instead deal with them on their terms.

3. This has resulted in a classic example of power-GMing, as the metaphorical GM has now placed into his plot an obstacle that can only be overcome by following his predetermined story arc, into which he is now railroading his players who, as it turns out, aren't actually that interested in it and would rather pursue their own plots but can't. This is resulting in unhappy players (surprise!).

Would you be surprised if there was no overarching long term story plot? Cause as far as I can work out from my interactions, there isn't. The Zuma do not appear to be a GM in the typical pen and paper sense, they don't exist to provide the complete framework and story for the players.

You can argue that everything they do is a result of player actions, but the fact is that you have a significant population of players suffering and getting frustrated as the result of the actions of only a small handful of players over whose actions they have no control whatsoever. My advice: Stop using such a big damn hammer to hammer such small nails. Stop overreacting to things and punishing entire realms over the trivial actions of one character. Start ignoring the little things and let things settle down a bit. There's no reason that the Zuma *have* to go bat-!@#$ crazy every time someone casts a shadow in the wrong spot. They're swinging that big hammer around indiscriminately every time someone sneezes, it's forcing everyone to dive for cover every time they do, and people are starting to resent being forced to do that when most of them were minding their own business.

A choice was made to overpower the Zuma. Because of that fact, their power should be used sparingly at best, and preferably not at all. Some realm decides to attack the Zuma? Go ahead, eat them alive. They deserve it. Someone is having a bad day and says something more harshly than he intended? Find other ways to punish him, or if you must, just ignore it. Keep whipping out the big damn hammer and handing out massive punishment over such trivial things and the players are going to be *miserable* before long. Just read this thread and you'll find all kinds of evidence to that effect already, and that's just the players who post in these forums. How many players in Barca, Terran and Asylon that don't post here are feeling the same level of frustration? I know I would be if I had the misfortune to be next to the Zuma.

It needs to be recognized that there are a lot of players around the Zuma that just don't care about them. The Zuma need to find a way to stay engaged with the players who want to engage them while not railroading everyone else into doing so as well, which is exactly what this constant and uncompromising resort to force is doing. So there's my advice: Lay off the hammer for a while and start reserving it for serious provocations.

Currently, where is the hammer being used? The problem being that within any realm there will be people that don't want to engage with the Zuma, just like in PeL there were people that didn't want a vocal few making enemies of everyone else in the area, and now they have to deal with the fallout. Like I said if the Zuma only interact with those that want it, they are pretty much relegated to writing RP's at the whim of nobility that show up. Maybe once and a while they can try to arrest and execute someone. Cause no matter WHAT the provocation, no matter how high up the hierarchy of the realm it comes from, there will be people affected that want nothing to do with the Zuma

[Geronus]

Would you be surprised if there was no overarching long term story plot? Cause as far as I can work out from my interactions, there isn't. The Zuma do not appear to be a GM in the typical pen and paper sense, they don't exist to provide the complete framework and story for the players.

That's actually irrelevant, it was just easier to illustrate the point using that example. Whether there's a story or not, players are being railroaded into interacting with them.

Currently, where is the hammer being used? The problem being that within any realm there will be people that don't want to engage with the Zuma, just like in PeL there were people that didn't want a vocal few making enemies of everyone else in the area, and now they have to deal with the fallout. Like I said if the Zuma only interact with those that want it, they are pretty much relegated to writing RP's at the whim of nobility that show up. Maybe once and a while they can try to arrest and execute someone. Cause no matter WHAT the provocation, no matter how high up the hierarchy of the realm it comes from, there will be people affected that want nothing to do with the Zuma

The comparison is false. The Zuma are overwhelmingly powerful, and are not controlled by players. That makes it entirely different, particularly from the perspective of the people who are being negatively affected.

Ultimately you have a point, but I strongly suspect there is a happy medium somewhere between the incredibly heavy handed manner in which they are behaving now and your scenario where they are entirely passive.

[Glaumring the Fox]

PeL is a human controlled realm, no one cares about what nefarious deeds player vs player gets up to. If PeL went on a massive killing spree and wiped everything around it there would be a bit of complaining but in general many people would buck up and be aware of it being something players do and BM allows. I could also look back over PeLs history and land and see where their gold came from, their food came from and where their nobles came from. I could see that the kingdoms around it were beaten because of 'reasons' . I would also know that their armies 'starve' and their lands being looted affected them. In regards to the Zuma none of these rules apply, they live on crap land, they have huge armies composed of the humans who live on that crap land, but for some reason is able to field well equipped armies that are really strong composed of the same people 'humans' who live on the crap land. In all truth the Zuman lands should be complete !@#$e, they should be poor and starving and barely able to have massive armies.

Ok here is my theory, the Zumans can have massive armies because for each person killed on Bel, that soul is ressurected on Dwilight. So basically we are paying for whats going on in Bel and if they would stop fighting there the Dwilight Zumans wouldn't be able to recruit anymore slaves or whatever, because honestly I don't know and if I am right... It still sucks.

[egamma]

I've visited the Zuma--sold a few hundred bushels of food, and made it out alive. Marchiavel and others from D'Hara have also managed to interact with the Zuma without pissing them off, and we're wondering why the Terrans and Barcans are so consistently dense when it comes to them--especially since it seems to be a recent stupidity, rather than a longer-term idiocy. The Barcans just had to go poke the Zuma with a stick, and ever since then, the Zuma have been pissed.

But there's no reason to discuss this in the forums. I'm going to have my character recommend amending the Treaty of the Marcoccidens to fix this whole scenario--you can read about it IG.

[De-Legro]

PeL is a human controlled realm, no one cares about what nefarious deeds player vs player gets up to. If PeL went on a massive killing spree and wiped everything around it there would be a bit of complaining but in general many people would buck up and be aware of it being something players do and BM allows. I could also look back over PeLs history and land and see where their gold came from, their food came from and where their nobles came from. I could see that the kingdoms around it were beaten because of 'reasons' . I would also know that their armies 'starve' and their lands being looted affected them. In regards to the Zuma none of these rules apply, they live on crap land, they have huge armies composed of the humans who live on that crap land, but for some reason is able to field well equipped armies that are really strong composed of the same people 'humans' who live on the crap land. In all truth the Zuman lands should be complete !@#$e, they should be poor and starving and barely able to have massive armies.

Ok here is my theory, the Zumans can have massive armies because for each person killed on Bel, that soul is ressurected on Dwilight. So basically we are paying for whats going on in Bel and if they would stop fighting there the Dwilight Zumans wouldn't be able to recruit anymore slaves or whatever, because honestly I don't know and if I am right... It still sucks.

Really, you could see the reasons for a war, even if those reasons where IC known by only a few character that never shared them? I mean right now you might even hear the public causes of the war, but can you KNOW they are the real ones? Can you know about every food trade, every under the table gold transaction? For all anyone knows Morek has been funnelling Solaria gold for weeks in a effort to establish SA in the south or something.

In terms of the army. Yeah there are some code limitations here. The Zuma have always RP'd having very few true daimons in the realm, thus armies composed of them would be odd. However they are a NPC faction and thus share code with the other NPC factions from BT. One thing to keep in mind, the human Zuma have been said to have been affected physically by their long term association with the Daimons. What affect that has on their required living conditions I don't know.

Lastly food, the Diamons have been buying as much as they can. If they don't need it, why waste all that gold on it? It surely wasn't because they loved the realms they bought it off. Some investigation into what they are doing with all that food might be interesting.

[Glaumring the Fox]

They are just funneling the food through a dimensional portal to Bel...

[MaleMaldives]

The problem is that no one that is complaining seems to want to offer an option to fix it that isn't one of the following

• Make them so weak we don't really need to worry about them
• Revel everything so they are completely game-able and we never set a foot wrong
• Make them do nothing but send nice RP's

Sorry if this stuff has already been said.

Weaken them a little bit but not make them pathetic. And those in charge don't overreact to dumb stuff.

Simple put it is super annoying to get my army that I have been training for awhile destroyed because the Zuma overreacted and feel for a forged letter that some other random player did. Not to mention whatever they are overreacting to this time.

[De-Legro]

Sorry if this stuff has already been said.

Weaken them a little bit but not make them pathetic. And those in charge don't overreact to dumb stuff.

Simple put it is super annoying to get my army that I have been training for awhile destroyed because the Zuma overreacted and feel for a forged letter that some other random player did. Not to mention whatever they are overreacting to this time.

Did you see the part were I said the units they have and the way they behave is largely shared code with BT? Unfortunately so far as I can see this would require someone to spend the time to separate both factions so as not to affect the invasion currently running. Given that there have been several large changes recently, and there is stuff still to come I don't think such a thing is going to happen in the short term, supposing that Tom decides that it is necessary.

In terms of over reacting to dumb stuff? Well I don't see everything that goes on, but so far as I have seen, there is a lot more provocation occurring then the average knight or lord is seeing.

[MaleMaldives]

Did you see the part were I said the units they have and the way they behave is largely shared code with BT? Unfortunately so far as I can see this would require someone to spend the time to separate both factions so as not to affect the invasion currently running. Given that there have been several large changes recently, and there is stuff still to come I don't think such a thing is going to happen in the short term, supposing that Tom decides that it is necessary.

Well then have them not attack anyone until that gets fixed.

In terms of over reacting to dumb stuff? Well I don't see everything that goes on, but so far as I have seen, there is a lot more provocation occurring then the average knight or lord is seeing.

From a member of Terran and the moot the attacks against Terran seem that way. And even if their were some secret provocations, it would be happening by a super small minority ruining fun for a lot more. I know in BM you can't always get what you want, but on continents beside Beluaterra that is to be expected because of other players not GM's.

[De-Legro]

Well then have them not attack anyone until that gets fixed.

From a member of Terran and the moot the attacks against Terran seem that way. And even if their were some secret provocations, it would be happening by a super small minority ruining fun for a lot more. I know in BM you can't always get what you want, but on continents beside Beluaterra that is to be expected because of other players not GM's.

Sorry no, when a GM faction exists, it is reasonable to expect that sometimes it will be the GM faction that ruins your plans. BT is our INVASION continent, not our sole GM continent. I would love to know exactly what the Zuma faction exists for mind you, but while it exists it is reasonable to expect it will affect the continent.

[MaleMaldives]

Sorry no, when a GM faction exists, it is reasonable to expect that sometimes it will be the GM faction that ruins your plans. BT is our INVASION continent, not our sole GM continent. I would love to know exactly what the Zuma faction exists for mind you, but while it exists it is reasonable to expect it will affect the continent.

Okay well, fine. But my impressions of the reasons why the Zuma have been attacking Terrab terrible have been absolutely awful. Then because the Zuma are so strong that it would be near impossible for Terran and it's allies to stop them it is extremely annoying.

[De-Legro]

Okay well, fine. But my impressions of the reasons why the Zuma have been attacking Terrab terrible have been absolutely awful. Then because the Zuma are so strong that it would be near impossible for Terran and it's allies to stop them it is extremely annoying.

They could have been stopped. Force of arms is probably not the best way, but there was certainly scope for things to have gone very differently. The difference between what happened in Terran and Barca, and say what nearly happened in Iashalur and Kabrinskia should show that there are ways to resolve things even after the Zuma start to gear up.

[Glaumring the Fox]

We are not supposed to stop the Zuma or even be able to fight back. They are here to keep Dwilight a peaceful place that jumps and skitters everytime the Zuma move. In protest every kingdom on Dwilight should form a federation of unity.

[MaleMaldives]

They could have been stopped. Force of arms is probably not the best way, but there was certainly scope for things to have gone very differently. The difference between what happened in Terran and Barca, and say what nearly happened in Iashalur and Kabrinskia should show that there are ways to resolve things even after the Zuma start to gear up.

Except they don't really gear up they just attack and you are like "what the hell is going on?". And it doesn't matter if the root of the problem is them attacking for absolutely awful reasons. Terran has been talking about how the don't like the Zuma, but a huge common theme among all the letters is we totally don't want them to attack us. So what was said before somewhere that they are only attack if provoked is fine if it worked that way. Terran is trying to play where they don't want to fight the Zuma, and yet they do.

[De-Legro]

Your own realm members disagree here.

I can think of 3 things we've done that could set off a Zuma rage-loot just in the last 3 days.

Honestly, I'm not surprised by the most recent attacks. I'm just frustrated that I'm unable to speak to foreign allies during the incident. It's kind of making things a wee bit tricksy.