Zuma/Daimons

[Chenier]

I have already made a plausible response to how to resolve this.

Multiple, rotating GMs with overlapping "terms" and a broad understanding among players that the daimons are truly different, with different goals and knowledge, not merely contrived personalities. Make it essentially like a human realm, except played by GMs.

This.

And I can't for the love of god understand what's so hard about writing simple "cole's notes" kind of bulletpoints for internal use. Why is it so godawful difficult for the GMs to write down notes of important events for the next guys to follow.

[Indirik]

This.

...would be an unmitigated disaster.

[Geronus]

No, if Vates was still around, but Haktoo was doing this stuff, I wouldn't be complaining at all on here. I'd be ICly scheming with Vates.

Or, even if both GMs were unified, I'd play nice, wait for the "Time of Haktoo" to end, and buddy up with the next Daimon overlord.

The problem with Vates is that there were multiple GMs but now there aren't.

Sacha (can't quote a quote apparently):

Point 2 is wrong. Daimons were not known to be immensely powerful. Back when those regions were not the Zuma Coalition, but rather just "Zuma" (and even the early days of the Zuma Coalition), the daimons usually only fielded armies of 2000 or 3000 CS per unit. One or two Zuma regions actually went rogue a few times, and the daimons lost some battles to rogues. And, even then, after the grew so powerful, the Zuma Coalition was very benign for a long time.

Furthermore, western colonization happened before we knew about the Zuma. Melodia predates general knowledge of the Zuma. Terran's encounters, to my knowledge, are when the Zuma began to get more publicity.

You know I have to point out that Silverfire (I think it was him) had a very good point about this. Maybe the Zuma were weak before because they only had their own resources to fall back on. Then everyone started selling them enormous quantities of food. Given how much they pay for it, doesn't it make sense that it's far more valuable to them than gold? Has anyone thought about why that might be? Maybe, just maybe, you've been feeding the beast, as it were. Maybe all that extra food is what is allowing them to maintain such enormous armies.

And, though I've largely supported the anti-Zuma people in this thread, I do agree that the multiple GM idea is wishful thinking. For one thing, it's been mentioned numerous times in numerous places that it is very difficult to recruit GMs who are willing and able to dedicate large amounts of time to their roles. And now you're demanding that instead of one Tom recruits a squad of them, who will not only devote all that time to their IC efforts, but also take extra time to make 100% thorough and accurate crib notes to share with all their peers detailing their every move so that they can all march in lockstep and no plot hook is ever left behind? They're not exactly getting paid for what they do you know...

[Sacha]

Point 2 is wrong. Daimons were not known to be immensely powerful. Back when those regions were not the Zuma Coalition, but rather just "Zuma" (and even the early days of the Zuma Coalition), the daimons usually only fielded armies of 2000 or 3000 CS per unit. One or two Zuma regions actually went rogue a few times, and the daimons lost some battles to rogues. And, even then, after the grew so powerful, the Zuma Coalition was very benign for a long time.

Furthermore, western colonization happened before we knew about the Zuma. Melodia predates general knowledge of the Zuma. Terran's encounters, to my knowledge, are when the Zuma began to get more publicity.

I'm not talking about just Zuma, I'm talking about Daimons as a whole. They'd kicked ass all over BT at the time, so we knew what they were capable of.

And I'm pretty sure that the presence of the Zuma was revealed fairly early on... A few months after Dwilight opened, a long time before Terran existed.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I believe we tried something similar to the multiple GMs idea in the 4th Inv. That resulted in seemingly disorganization. Well, don't let me judge it. You tell me, what did you think of that plan? In the Netherworld there were no less than 3 different GMs at any one time (I think...Sherilynn, the Nyghts, the Valitorres, at one point the of the Zumas) And how did that go?

If I remember correctly, there was some deal of confusion, which as it is somewhat known now, might have been the intent there. But mostly that came from OOC confusion, which is undesirable. With the Zuma on Dwilight it's probably not intended that we have multiple voices to listen to, to figure out which one we want.

But to reiterate: Remember 4th Inv and the player responses then to the multiple GMs? And how there was no "consistency"? Here, we thusfar only had 2 GMs among the Zuma: The Daimonbreeds and the of the Zumas. Once the of the Zumas left there has seemingly already been a plot vacuum perceived by some players who dealt with Vates. Can you imagine what would happen if in addition to that we had, say, the Nyghts?

I would predict then that there would be different complaints, mainly that there are too many GMs, thus confusing the plot, or making it too messy for players to follow (Which has been a perennial Invasion complaint).

The rotating GMs idea would only exacerbate the problem of consistency. Think about it: How much do you really think the GMs collaborate? And even if they did, it's hard to communicate some things enough face to face, many times harder when it's through text over the Internet. There will be miscommunications and misunderstandings, and they will snowball into bigger problems. And players will catch on to that and start attacking those weaknesses which are only natural results of the inherent weaknesses in human communication.

[Feylonis]

Zuma's existence did become known a few months after Dwilight opened, but other than the name, it was all a big question mark for the continent. People only started knowing more detailed things about them when Terran began engagement and interaction.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I believe we tried something similar to the multiple GMs idea in the 4th Inv. That resulted in seemingly disorganization. Well, don't let me judge it. You tell me, what did you think of that plan? In the Netherworld there were no less than 3 different GMs at any one time (I think...Sherilynn, the Nyghts, the Valitorres, at one point the of the Zumas) And how did that go?

If I remember correctly, there was some deal of confusion, which as it is somewhat known now, might have been the intent there. But mostly that came from OOC confusion, which is undesirable. With the Zuma on Dwilight it's probably not intended that we have multiple voices to listen to, to figure out which one we want.

But to reiterate: Remember 4th Inv and the player responses then to the multiple GMs? And how there was no "consistency"? Here, we thusfar only had 2 GMs among the Zuma: The Daimonbreeds and the of the Zumas. Once the of the Zumas left there has seemingly already been a plot vacuum perceived by some players who dealt with Vates. Can you imagine what would happen if in addition to that we had, say, the Nyghts?

I would predict then that there would be different complaints, mainly that there are too many GMs, thus confusing the plot, or making it too messy for players to follow (Which has been a perennial Invasion complaint).

The rotating GMs idea would only exacerbate the problem of consistency. Think about it: How much do you really think the GMs collaborate? And even if they did, it's hard to communicate some things enough face to face, many times harder when it's through text over the Internet. There will be miscommunications and misunderstandings, and they will snowball into bigger problems. And players will catch on to that and start attacking those weaknesses which are only natural results of the inherent weaknesses in human communication.

I would rather have multiple GM's to deal with, because then there would be a reason for misunderstandings.

[^ban^]

I would rather have multiple GM's to deal with, because then there would be a reason for misunderstandings.

...because massive cultural differences aren't one?

[Sacha]

Zuma's existence did become known a few months after Dwilight opened, but other than the name, it was all a big question mark for the continent. People only started knowing more detailed things about them when Terran began engagement and interaction.

Irrelevant. It was known they were associated with Daimons, and Daimons were known to be a grave danger.

[Vellos]

Irrelevant. It was known they were associated with Daimons, and Daimons were known to be a grave danger.

Daimons were known to be cooperative, reasonable, sometimes almost nice folks.

I don't know what your character was doing during the 4th Invasion.

[Vellos]

...would be an unmitigated disaster.

You have players in multiple realms who have invested large amounts of time engaging in suicide RP-plots and seriously looking at leaving Dwilight or BM entirely.

There is already a disaster.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Daimons were known to be cooperative, reasonable, sometimes almost nice folks.

I don't know what your character was doing during the 4th Invasion.

Heh..haha...you're...you're joking, right? Like, OOCly, you are in fact, joking, yes?

[Vellos]

You know I have to point out that Silverfire (I think it was him) had a very good point about this. Maybe the Zuma were weak before because they only had their own resources to fall back on. Then everyone started selling them enormous quantities of food. Given how much they pay for it, doesn't it make sense that it's far more valuable to them than gold? Has anyone thought about why that might be? Maybe, just maybe, you've been feeding the beast, as it were. Maybe all that extra food is what is allowing them to maintain such enormous armies.

And, though I've largely supported the anti-Zuma people in this thread, I do agree that the multiple GM idea is wishful thinking. For one thing, it's been mentioned numerous times in numerous places that it is very difficult to recruit GMs who are willing and able to dedicate large amounts of time to their roles. And now you're demanding that instead of one Tom recruits a squad of them, who will not only devote all that time to their IC efforts, but also take extra time to make 100% thorough and accurate crib notes to share with all their peers detailing their every move so that they can all march in lockstep and no plot hook is ever left behind? They're not exactly getting paid for what they do you know...

So what do you propose we do? Hm?

Terran has only sold small amounts of food very sporadically, and only when we felt it was necessary for our survival. I guess maybe Asylon is selling tons of food. But, again, what do you propose we do? Attack Asylon because they're helping the Zuma? I don't think the Zuma would like that, for some reason. Madina sold food... and the Zuma are no threat to Madina.

The problem here is that a trader could come over all the way from, say, Morek, and sell food to the Zuma, and thus strengthen them against the Moot. And there is no "Arrest trader" option to my knowledge.

Again, one or two nobles operating secretly, quietly, or even accidentally could set off the chain reaction with food that makes the Zuma "Too big to fight."

[Vellos]

Heh..haha...you're...you're joking, right? Like, OOCly, you are in fact, joking, yes?

Not in the slightest.

3rd Invasion too (I think...?) Hireshmont had a number of pleasant conversations with folks in Vlaanderen, and even one or two with Arcane (I quite liked Arcane).

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Ok, here's a thought. I've tried to be strictly objective for this bit.

BM is a large game. There have been many players who have quit en masse for several reasons. Among them were dissatisfaction with certain aspects of the game, or losing the war. I cannot cite every single reason, but if you wish to poll everyone (Try loren actually, since he's been around a long time) then you'll likely discover that we have lost large groups of players for a diverse number of reasons. We did not exactly alter things just to accomodate those players.

Now, let's look at the current situation in regard to this "disaster".

First, Dwilight accounts for 1/6 of BM's total continents. That means that even if Dwilight is totally rotten, BM itself is still 5/6 not rotten (unless you have complaints there in which case it's no longer just about the Zuma).

Second, the Zuma actually account for very little of Dwilight's actual mass, and their influence area is actually very small. If you do not believe me, please recall what Bowie Ironsides did. There were declarations for his execution, and that any realm that harbored him would face consequences. Well, Barca made him their Duke of Rettleville shortly after they formed. For that, the Zuma marched on them. But, before that, Summerdale harbored him. The King of Summerdale even told the Zuma essentially to piss off. You will notice that Summerdale never saw the slightest hint of daimon. And now? Bowie lives nicely as Lord of Ashrak in the Morek Empire. And the Morek Empire has not seen the slightest hint of daimon.

What this means is that the GM controlled realm is actually a very small blip in the entirety of BM as a game. I do not think that such a small blip would justifiably "ruin the game" for many people, because there is still so much more to BM than just Dwilight and for that matter, just West Dwilight. If those people cannot open their eyes that there is a bigger BM world out there, then it is unfortunate. However, I do not believe that we would be justified in making such changes to something that accounts for so little of the game just to satisfy a small minority of players. What our efforts should focus on, rather, is making the game actually stable again, and improving the real pulls of BM like battling.

And if you would just step back a moment, you too will realize that Dwilight as a whole even accounts for very little of the BM experience. Even much less important is the west where the Zuma actually might plausibly influence.

So I will remain diplomatic through all this and say that, based on the objective contribution of Dwilight to the game it belongs to, and the further weight of the Zuma in Dwilight, it does not appear justified to me that we should focus any resources towards modifying the current system in order to potentially retain a very small amount of characters/players who might very well quit for other reasons that have to do with dissatisfaction with other aspects of the game.

Remember: BM is what we're playing. Dwilight is just a tiny part of it. The take-home lesson might be to keep your options open, and not to get too attached to a GAME character.