Author Topic: Reworking Trade  (Read 42523 times)

Tom

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Reworking Trade
« Topic Start: January 26, 2012, 10:20:12 AM »
We are currently doing a total overhaul of trade. Feedback from many players summed up as "the old system is way too complicated and bothersome". While we're at it, we will also replace warehouses with granaries. A granary is simply a building you can construct just like any other building (scouts guild, smiths, etc.) so this simplifies things because it's one interface and not two.


The design goals are:
  • Trade should be comparatively easy to do
  • Trade should have a local aspect, to simulate a world where logistics are rough and travel slow
  • Traders should have a space, but more in the spirit of masters of a trading house than as travelling salesmen

From this comes the following current design:
Every region lord (or his steward) can create Market Offers. These are deals of the "selling/buying X bushels for Y gold" kind. However, to simplify things, they are now all-or-nothing deals. So if someone is selling 500 bushels, but you only need 400 - tough luck. Buy the 500 or look for a different deal.

Region lords, stewards and traders can all access the "new" Marketplace. Actually, this is the old market place, the one you can build in your region and many regions (cities, townslands, etc. - can't be build anywhere) already have one.

When you are at a market place (or in your own region), you can access market offers from the nearby regions. Traders have a further "reach". So if you are a region lord and in desperate need of food - travel around to market places and you can find something. Or make a trader do it.

When you accept an offer, the food is delivered.


And that's it.

Right now, the system is a bit rough, and all trades are instant. We will later replace that with caravans being sent out.

Here's a screenshot of what the new market place screen will look like. This is for a trader characters, non-traders will have a lower trading distance.



D`Este

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #1: January 26, 2012, 10:36:43 AM »
What will be the reach? Same as with the caravan system that we have currently? Also, in order to trade food you need to build a building first?

This also ignores an important part of the current problem and that is that it still requires on a regular basis time from both the region lord that is selling and the lord that is buying. It will still require the banker poking the lords time after time to post up an offer. With other words, besides that no caravan is sent out and a building is required, I see no real changes.


De-Legro

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #2: January 26, 2012, 11:24:09 AM »
What will be the reach? Same as with the caravan system that we have currently? Also, in order to trade food you need to build a building first?

This also ignores an important part of the current problem and that is that it still requires on a regular basis time from both the region lord that is selling and the lord that is buying. It will still require the banker poking the lords time after time to post up an offer. With other words, besides that no caravan is sent out and a building is required, I see no real changes.

The Market Place is not required. So long as you are in your region you can access the market features. The Market place will help facilitate trade as it allows any lord ( of the realm? not sure about lords from other realms) to access the trade system in that region. So a good network of market places will enable Lords to have access to the trade system without travelling to their region.

From Toms description I'm not sure if the new system still has travel times for the food. I read it as instant delivery, with the local range of the offers "simulating" logistics. An important thing for those currently sending out carvans to buy food though is, the food won't be gone by time your caravans arrive.

This system also displays the offers in a much clearer manner, which should reduce the need to have the Banker constantly watching sell/buy orders

Hopefully this change will also help people move away from the idea that Bankers need to micromanage food in the realm. In my opinion since the Bankers lost their ability to move food around, we have been stuck with a mindset of still trying to get them to fill that role, when they lack effective abilities to do so.

Bankers should not have to approach Lords. Dukes get a similar food report for their regions. I've always assumed that this is because the Lords owe a oath to the Duke, which if we look at the real world would generally involve food supply. Dukes should be ensuring their Lords are meeting their duties in this regard. As a banker if I noticed something odd in a region, I would approach the Duke, not the lord. I see Bankers having some role in facilitating food movement between Duchies, and more importantly food movement between realms.

Besides, so long as there is the ability to set a automatic offer system, similar to auto caravans we reduce the need for Lords to manage orders very often.



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D`Este

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #3: January 26, 2012, 11:40:01 AM »
Quote
The Market Place is not required. So long as you are in your region you can access the market features. The Market place will help facilitate trade as it allows any lord ( of the realm? not sure about lords from other realms) to access the trade system in that region. So a good network of market places will enable Lords to have access to the trade system without travelling to their region.

I don't see how this would make things simpler. So unless someone takes the time to organise the construction of warehouses all across the realm, lords will be unable to follow the army the entire time as they would need to travel to either their region or to a region with a warehouse. Also, what about armies in enemy realms, how could lords give orders there, or does the entire food movement need to be planned out before the army heads out?

Quote
From Toms description I'm not sure if the new system still has travel times for the food. I read it as instant delivery, with the local range of the offers "simulating" logistics. An important thing for those currently sending out caravans to buy food though is, the food won't be gone by time your caravans arrive.

True.

Quote
This system also displays the offers in a much clearer manner, which should reduce the need to have the Banker constantly watching sell/buy orders

Still someone has to watch the buy and sell orders to make sure lords post their food for sale, this won't change as how it's done at this moment.

Quote
Bankers should not have to approach Lords. Dukes get a similar food report for their regions. I've always assumed that this is because the Lords owe a oath to the Duke, which if we look at the real world would generally involve food supply. Dukes should be ensuring their Lords are meeting their duties in this regard. As a banker if I noticed something odd in a region, I would approach the Duke, not the lord. I see Bankers having some role in facilitating food movement between Duchies, and more importantly food movement between realms.

Alright, either a banker or duke needs to poke the lords, it still requires the attention of one to talk to lords about it.

Quote
Besides, so long as there is the ability to set a automatic offer system, similar to auto caravans we reduce the need for Lords to manage orders very often.

For the moment Tom doesn't want to add any automatic features, just a simple system to start with. At least that he said via mail.



vonGenf

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #4: January 26, 2012, 11:55:31 AM »
I'm not sure I understand the role of the trader correctly. I can see how a region Lord may want to become a trader to make his region a trade hub, and possibly profit from it. But how exactly will non-Lord traders help? Will they just be able see the offers and report them?

What about caravan paraphernalia?
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Tom

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #5: January 26, 2012, 12:01:20 PM »
The main purpose of this change is simplification - both for the players and for the coders. The current system is a mess, code-wise, and that's why it is so buggy, intransparent and just horrible.

The new one is a ton easier. Just looking at how simple the new trading page is while offering more functionality, I am quite happy already.


I'm not sure I understand the role of the trader correctly. I can see how a region Lord may want to become a trader to make his region a trade hub, and possibly profit from it. But how exactly will non-Lord traders help? Will they just be able see the offers and report them?

What about caravan paraphernalia?

Lord + Trader will be a powerful combination. But traders do not have to be lords, they can work as "brokers" of deals and make a nice profit without ever having to worry about details such as where to store the food.

The caravan paraphernalia will most likely go away. Otherwise we'll never get people away from the mindset of the trader as a travelling salesman.

Frankly, that's a commoners job. We may be adding infiltrator and trader commoner classes in the future, though.

De-Legro

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #6: January 26, 2012, 12:04:54 PM »
I don't see how this would make things simpler. So unless someone takes the time to organise the construction of warehouses all across the realm, lords will be unable to follow the army the entire time as they would need to travel to either their region or to a region with a warehouse. Also, what about armies in enemy realms, how could lords give orders there, or does the entire food movement need to be planned out before the army heads out?

True.

Still someone has to watch the buy and sell orders to make sure lords post their food for sale, this won't change as how it's done at this moment.

Alright, either a banker or duke needs to poke the lords, it still requires the attention of one to talk to lords about it.

For the moment Tom doesn't want to add any automatic features, just a simple system to start with. At least that he said via mail.

I'm not keen on the restrictions to accessing the market system either. However I understand why they are there. My concern is that on the islands that have daily harvest, without some sort of automatic system we will possibly put a lot of pressure on Lords or Stewards to be in a position to update the orders.

 Co-ordinating the building of Market Places would be no different to co-ordinating the various infrastructure we already do.

If you need to constantly poke the Lords to set food, you appointed the wrong nobles to the position. Sure there might not have been anyone better, welcome to the hassles we all face when the wrong person is doing the wrong job.

I'm not sure I understand the role of the trader correctly. I can see how a region Lord may want to become a trader to make his region a trade hub, and possibly profit from it. But how exactly will non-Lord traders help? Will they just be able see the offers and report them?

What about caravan paraphernalia?

Exactly what Traders will do is under discussion now. As I understand it they don't need caravans, so I'm guessing when they purchase food, they can choose where to direct it to.
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vonGenf

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #7: January 26, 2012, 12:05:20 PM »
But traders do not have to be lords, they can work as "brokers" of deals and make a nice profit without ever having to worry about details such as where to store the food.

Does you mean that if region x has a sell offer and region y has a buy offer, and those regions are too far apart to see each other, then a random trader passing by could trigger the sale and pocket the price difference? That would be nice.

The caravan paraphernalia will most likely go away. Otherwise we'll never get people away from the mindset of the trader as a travelling salesman.

I would request that at least something be kept to allow troop leaders to feed their troops when in famished lands.

Frankly, that's a commoners job. We may be adding infiltrator and trader commoner classes in the future, though.

That would be nice.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

fodder

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #8: January 26, 2012, 12:07:12 PM »
..eh.. if you get rid of caravans.. how do you loot food from somewhere else and bring it home?
firefox

vonGenf

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #9: January 26, 2012, 12:08:37 PM »
..eh.. if you get rid of caravans.. how do you loot food from somewhere else and bring it home?

Oh, yes, also that!
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Tom

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #10: January 26, 2012, 12:10:11 PM »
Does you mean that if region x has a sell offer and region y has a buy offer, and those regions are too far apart to see each other, then a random trader passing by could trigger the sale and pocket the price difference? That would be nice.

That is exactly what it means and what the role of the trader would be.


I would request that at least something be kept to allow troop leaders to feed their troops when in famished lands.

That is something I'm currently thinking about. Might be that carts or something else take that role and it becomes more passive than active (i.e. you don't actually have to buy food).

Tom

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #11: January 26, 2012, 12:11:26 PM »
..eh.. if you get rid of caravans.. how do you loot food from somewhere else and bring it home?

By leaving the "bring it home" part to someone else - you would loot it and it would be added to your region. Later on (when the time delays are added) with a delay.

D`Este

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #12: January 26, 2012, 12:19:01 PM »
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Co-ordinating the building of Market Places would be no different to co-ordinating the various infrastructure we already do.

Besides that most infrastructure is non critical, warehouses are..

Quote
If you need to constantly poke the Lords to set food, you appointed the wrong nobles to the position. Sure there might not have been anyone better, welcome to the hassles we all face when the wrong person is doing the wrong job.

Tell me one realm where this isn't required, in all those I have been lords need to be constantly reminded.


fodder

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #13: January 26, 2012, 12:21:43 PM »
By leaving the "bring it home" part to someone else - you would loot it and it would be added to your region. Later on (when the time delays are added) with a delay.
eh? so your army walks around, loot.. and then it just appear somewhere? region where you have an estate? (what if you have no estate?)

don't mind.
firefox

De-Legro

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #14: January 26, 2012, 12:28:01 PM »
Besides that most infrastructure is non critical, warehouses are..

Tell me one realm where this isn't required, in all those I have been lords need to be constantly reminded.

Scouts, Healers, Siege Engines RC's are critical? Don't know what game you are playing but those are all pretty important in the game I play.

And of course most realms have issues with Lords and trade, cause what do they do about it? Pretty much nothing but send more messages. If a Lord can't step up and do their duty, find someone that can.
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