Author Topic: Reworking Trade  (Read 106607 times)

Indirik

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #90: February 07, 2012, 03:12:01 AM »
How do I give it food?
  • Put up a Sell offer and have him buy it.
  • Have him put up a Buy offer, and then you sell him food to fill it.
Really, not much has changed, except that you can't just give food away any more. (Which I agree is a bit annoying. But I can deal with that.)

Quote
...all of a sudden the government gets a lot more power over their lords over who they can or can't trade with.
Umm... what? I get the feeling that your just posting random objections to the system without really thinking things through.

In order for the government to prevent you from trading with someone, they will need to declare war on them. (And you can work around that with the assistance of a neutral third party, anyway.) "The government" has no idea who you are selling food to, or who you are buying food from, or for how much. They cannot control how much food you sell, or for what price. They can see the offers you post, if they happen to look while the offer is open. But they cannot know who fills them. And if you are paranoid about "the government" seeing what offers you have open, then have your foreign contact put up offers, and you fill them. That way your region never has an open offer, and no one will ever know that you bought/sold the food.
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Chenier

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #91: February 07, 2012, 03:23:26 AM »
  • Put up a Sell offer and have him buy it.
  • Have him put up a Buy offer, and then you sell him food to fill it.
Really, not much has changed, except that you can't just give food away any more. (Which I agree is a bit annoying. But I can deal with that.)

I'm a bit confused about how the offers work. About who can set buy or sell offers, and when and where. I'm gonna try to get to a marketplace as soon as possible to see things for myself (perhaps I'll understand better), but that'll take a few days.

Putting up a a sell offer from my region, for cheap, ain't a good option for giving food away though as the first trader/lord to check the markets will be able to snatch it before the intended duke.

Umm... what? I get the feeling that your just posting random objections to the system without really thinking things through.

In order for the government to prevent you from trading with someone, they will need to declare war on them. (And you can work around that with the assistance of a neutral third party, anyway.) "The government" has no idea who you are selling food to, or who you are buying food from, or for how much. They cannot control how much food you sell, or for what price. They can see the offers you post, if they happen to look while the offer is open. But they cannot know who fills them. And if you are paranoid about "the government" seeing what offers you have open, then have your foreign contact put up offers, and you fill them. That way your region never has an open offer, and no one will ever know that you bought/sold the food.

Aren't people saying that the government can set that you can only trade with allies, or no one?

My issues aren't with my own government, but with others'. And the way I see it, the only way for us to trade with people from far away is to send traders to them (as it's unreasonable to expect the whole world to come to D'Hara to sell their personal stocks). As such, those lords *need* to set a public sell offer for traders to be able to pick it up. And now the trade offers are posted in a much clearer way (instead of buried within a long list of regions) and available to everyone (instead of only lords). Lords selling us food despite a realm-level policy of "no exports" or "exports to X only" accounted for a significant part of D'Haran imports over the years... If they can now check a box stating "only trade with allies", then that will give governments a lot more power over the lords than they used to have, and deny the lords the capacity to defy their government. Unless I misunderstood and that option to sell to allies only is the lord's, and not the government's?
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Indirik

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #92: February 07, 2012, 03:31:06 AM »
I'm a bit confused about how the offers work. About who can set buy or sell offers, and when and where.
A lord/steward can create a buy/sell offer against their regions stocks whenever they are in a market place., or in their home region.

Any lord, steward, or trader can act to fill an order whenever they are in a marketplace. Lords/stewards can also do this in their home region, whether it has a marketplace or not.

Quote
Putting up a a sell offer from my region, for cheap, ain't a good option for giving food away though as the first trader/lord to check the markets will be able to snatch it before the intended duke.
Correct. But it would require someone to be in range, and checking, and willing to take it. You will, however, at least know who took it.

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Aren't people saying that the government can set that you can only trade with allies, or no one?
Ahh.. I see what you mean. No, the government does not set that. The lord sets that for each trade they post. The lord sets these things:
  • buy or sell
  • price
  • quantity
  • Who can trade on the offer
This is all set by the lord. The banker/duke can see the offers, but not control them in any way. In fact, there is no way for them to even see who the offer is restricted to.
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Chenier

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #93: February 07, 2012, 03:34:58 AM »
I see...

I look forward to actually getting to try this new system to be able to provide informed feedback.
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egamma

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #94: February 07, 2012, 03:35:53 AM »
This is all set by the lord. The banker/duke can see the offers, but not control them in any way. In fact, there is no way for them to even see who the offer is restricted to.

That needed to be bolded, it directly addresses the objection from Chenier.

De-Legro

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #95: February 07, 2012, 03:38:01 AM »
Well, I'm working a lot with how I understand the system to be, right now. I haven't actually gotten in any darn marketplace yet.

But the new system doesn't allow you to be able to say that "to you, I'll buy/sell at X", while giving another price to someone else. All the offers are up on the table. Port Nebel's low on food and production's !@#$ty? How do I give it food? Put a cheap offer on the market and hope that the duke gets to it first? Put an expensive offer and give him gold to compensate? What if I'm dealing with someone from a neighbor realm (where gold transfers don't work)?

Just feels like the free market was imposed on us. All offers become so transparent, and all of a sudden the government gets a lot more power over their lords over who they can or can't trade with.
]

The confusion I have is, how did you used to say to you I will buy/sell at X? There was no explicit mechanics for it and the only way I knew that it worked was micromanaging or hoping no one beat your caravans, which is still possible now. If you are talking about sending out buy caravans with more gold per 100 then the regions buying price, I would have to go and look that up again. My understanding was it always favoured the caravans, so you caravans would buy at the lowest possible cost up to the amount you set. I could be wrong about that.
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Chenier

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #96: February 07, 2012, 03:52:58 AM »
]

The confusion I have is, how did you used to say to you I will buy/sell at X? There was no explicit mechanics for it and the only way I knew that it worked was micromanaging or hoping no one beat your caravans, which is still possible now. If you are talking about sending out buy caravans with more gold per 100 then the regions buying price, I would have to go and look that up again. My understanding was it always favoured the caravans, so you caravans would buy at the lowest possible cost up to the amount you set. I could be wrong about that.

Because I sent a lot more caravans abroad than others sent to me, and because I sent a lot of caravans with, in mind, not the current displayed offers but what would likely be next. I didn't bother to calculate how long was the travel to time the caravans with harvests, I just sent *a lot* of caravans. It was not rare for me to have 20 or so caravans out at the same time.

Others could theoretically beat me, yes, but the difference was in the caravan delays. Those willing to sell to me for cheaper, or those I was willing to sell for cheaper were a lot closer to me than any competitor, as traders needed to be in the region in person and neighboring realms were all exporters, not importers.

Mind you, I think the new system is not as bad for these things as I first thought. As I said in my last post, I'll try to try it out as soon as possible. I did not realize you could set purchase offers, I thought you could only accept sell offers.
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De-Legro

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #97: February 07, 2012, 05:21:43 AM »
Because I sent a lot more caravans abroad than others sent to me, and because I sent a lot of caravans with, in mind, not the current displayed offers but what would likely be next. I didn't bother to calculate how long was the travel to time the caravans with harvests, I just sent *a lot* of caravans. It was not rare for me to have 20 or so caravans out at the same time.

Others could theoretically beat me, yes, but the difference was in the caravan delays. Those willing to sell to me for cheaper, or those I was willing to sell for cheaper were a lot closer to me than any competitor, as traders needed to be in the region in person and neighboring realms were all exporters, not importers.

Mind you, I think the new system is not as bad for these things as I first thought. As I said in my last post, I'll try to try it out as soon as possible. I did not realize you could set purchase offers, I thought you could only accept sell offers.

Thanks for the clarification. So far as I can see the advantages you had were not an intended part of the system, but rather a fortuitous matter of geography and realm composition. You are right that the new system with the instant transfers and the need for a offer to exist before you can act on it probably will affect the way you were handling trade. The only way to get the same effect is micro management.
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Tom

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #98: February 07, 2012, 10:01:33 AM »
Well, I'm working a lot with how I understand the system to be, right now. I haven't actually gotten in any darn marketplace yet.

Then maybe you should do that first.


But the new system doesn't allow you to be able to say that "to you, I'll buy/sell at X", while giving another price to someone else. All the offers are up on the table. Port Nebel's low on food and production's !@#$ty? How do I give it food? Put a cheap offer on the market and hope that the duke gets to it first?

If Port Nebel needs food, then it should put up some buy orders. If it doesn't put up buy orders, then it apparently doesn't really need food.

And you then "give it food" by accepting those buy orders. It really is that simple.



Tom

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #99: February 07, 2012, 10:05:27 AM »
Putting up a a sell offer from my region, for cheap, ain't a good option for giving food away though as the first trader/lord to check the markets will be able to snatch it before the intended duke.

Because there is no such thing as an "intended recipient" in this system. You are basically complaining that McDonalds doesn't sell Levi's Jeans - well yes, they don't, because they don't sell clothes. Your complaint is technically valid, but - excuse the words - total bull!@#$.


Aren't people saying that the government can set that you can only trade with allies, or no one?

No, you can determine that certain of your own orders can only be accepted by allies.

Really, stop complaining about something you've not even seen yourself. Check it out first, understand how it works, then talk to us. This has gone past the "ridiculous" point.

egamma

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #100: February 07, 2012, 02:37:07 PM »
I talked a couple of players through it in-game, and with just a few sentences I could explain the entire system from both a lord and trader perspective.

I have updated the Trade page, hopefully that clears up a lot of things.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 03:10:09 PM by egamma »

Chenier

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #101: February 08, 2012, 12:13:43 AM »
Do consider that my intent is to understand, not to whine.
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egamma

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #102: February 09, 2012, 09:11:38 PM »
Do consider that my intent is to understand, not to whine.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Trade

Does the new wiki make sense?

Someone with more skills than myself could maybe put in some sample maps with 'trade ranges' drawn as circles or something.

Tom

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #103: February 10, 2012, 12:56:04 AM »
Someone with more skills than myself could maybe put in some sample maps with 'trade ranges' drawn as circles or something.

Actually, we plan to add that to the dynamic map one day.

Charles

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #104: February 10, 2012, 01:20:10 AM »
While reading a few posts it seems that the Dev team has had to deal with a fair amount of complaining.  I would like to point out that I am liking the new system.  Good job! 
My only issue so far has been that the infrastructure is often not in place for the system; as in, we now need to build marketplaces in a variety of areas in order that our lords do not have to move back to their regions to set up trades.  This could have been very frustrating if we had not been given extra food to deal with the change. 
I assume there will be some things that I will miss in the old system, but there will be alot of things that I do not. 
Anyway just wanted to put in a positive comment incase you had not had one recently. :)