Author Topic: Reworking Trade  (Read 106699 times)

Dante Silverfire

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #180: June 03, 2012, 12:02:45 AM »
Two problems:
1. As noted, partially filling orders would be nice. My trader has a big pile of profit staring him in the face.... and can't access it, because partial orders don't work.

2. Unprofitable trade needs to be possible. Sometimes I stand to gain from an unprofitable trade; such as if it manages to fuel money into a region in which I have a significant oath. Let's say I make a 200 gold transaction, and lose 20 gold on it. If the income of that region rises 200 gold, and I have an oath for 30%, I just gained considerably. It's not mere altruistic nationalism: trading at a loss is a valuable tool for reaping personal rewards and for making political allies.

With both of those, in my own experience, a significant amount of new trading could open up.

1. As a lord, I don't want partially filling orders to be implemented. By NOT having that ability, I can offer different prices for different amounts of food. For instance, right now, I offer 30 gold/100 bushels for food purchases of 500 bushels or 1000 bushels. But, I offer only 20 gold per 100 bushels for trades set up at 100 bushels a pop. I also have 10 gold per 100 bushel trades set up for anyone wanting to do my region a favor and sell me food at a cheaper price/at a loss.

2. I would agree that would be a good implementation.
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Eithad

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #181: June 03, 2012, 12:26:21 AM »
I like Tom's idea, filling an order costs the lord a bit extra (to arrange transport and what not) but posting the orders both buy and sell do not. The gap and overhead encourages allowing traders to match offers instead. Don't listen to Indirik.

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #182: June 03, 2012, 04:24:59 AM »
Two problems:
1. As noted, partially filling orders would be nice. My trader has a big pile of profit staring him in the face.... and can't access it, because partial orders don't work.

2. Unprofitable trade needs to be possible. Sometimes I stand to gain from an unprofitable trade; such as if it manages to fuel money into a region in which I have a significant oath. Let's say I make a 200 gold transaction, and lose 20 gold on it. If the income of that region rises 200 gold, and I have an oath for 30%, I just gained considerably. It's not mere altruistic nationalism: trading at a loss is a valuable tool for reaping personal rewards and for making political allies.

With both of those, in my own experience, a significant amount of new trading could open up.

1. Lords who want partial trades can already make small offers easily (refresh).

2. Trade offers are personal offers, so those are bonds that go to the lord or steward, not to the region.
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Dante Silverfire

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #183: June 03, 2012, 04:29:55 AM »
2. Trade offers are personal offers, so those are bonds that go to the lord or steward, not to the region.

There are still reasons to allow unprofitable trades. It allows you to make friends with lords, and do it indirectly, where sometimes you wouldn't be officially allowed to do so.
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Chenier

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #184: June 03, 2012, 06:08:28 AM »
The basic idea was that traders are more useful than lords doing trading, due to their wider range and ability to broker deals.

As it stands so far, it doesn't work out. So we will add more incentives to include traders. One idea I have is adding fees for lords who complete (but not publish) deals. So basically, for a lord it should be cheaper to put up a "buying 500 food for 100 gold" deal next to the already existing "selling 500 food for 100 gold" one than it is to simply accept it. In fact, it should be so much cheaper that he's willing to put up a "buying 500 for 105" so traders can make a profit.

Which means the fee should be around 10% or so.

When will priest/traders be allowed?

I also think that the system shouldn't be designed to penalize all non-traders... Traders are relatively rare. I understand them deserving a special bonus (range is a nice one), but it shouldn't feel like we are being cheated out if we can't find enough traders. Used to be that all food was free, and automatically moved around, hassle-free. Now, everyone needs to think about it. A price has to be set. people have to move. Build marketplaces. And now extra fees? I'm thinking it's not what most people would consider fun.

It all just seems like we are forcing people to spend a lot more gold into the economy that they used to be able to spend on the military before. Without any noticeable boost in income to compensate for all of these new expenses.
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egamma

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #185: June 03, 2012, 06:20:30 AM »
And now extra fees? I'm thinking it's not what most people would consider fun.

There were fees before, 1 gold per caravan. This is pretty similar.

Dante Silverfire

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #186: June 03, 2012, 06:23:44 AM »
There were fees before, 1 gold per caravan. This is pretty similar.

Not really. I mean before, you could move food around for free. Now, you HAVE to pay for it. Some lords don't want to charge their dukes/leader of the city for food. Some Dukes can convince their lords to give them food for free.

Now, its required to pay for it at least, and the new system requires more interaction from the lords due to the elimination of automatic transfers, so I would argue it is significantly different.
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Chenier

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #187: June 03, 2012, 06:29:07 AM »
Not really. I mean before, you could move food around for free. Now, you HAVE to pay for it. Some lords don't want to charge their dukes/leader of the city for food. Some Dukes can convince their lords to give them food for free.

Now, its required to pay for it at least, and the new system requires more interaction from the lords due to the elimination of automatic transfers, so I would argue it is significantly different.

Indeed.

Plus, the fee, from what I was told, never actually worked. It said there was a fee, but it wasn't applied.
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fodder

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #188: June 03, 2012, 09:09:52 AM »
you sure unprofitable trades are not possible? haven't tried it myself, but i don't see why it shouldn't work , if the amount of food matches up.

ie.. someone is buying for 30 per 100, someone is selling at 40 per 100. don't see why you can't match them up and cough up 10 bonds at the same time.

--
i think the old fee was.. 1 gold per shipment, not 1g/caravan
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 09:11:34 AM by fodder »
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Tom

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #189: June 03, 2012, 09:51:53 AM »
So does that mean we will be paying 5% more when we post our buy offers?

No. I explicitly said that the fee would be for ACCEPTING orders, not for posting them. If I made posting orders expensive, there would be even less orders posted. But we want lots and lots of orders posted. What we don't want is lords doing all the trading amongst themselves.

Tom

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #190: June 03, 2012, 09:54:32 AM »
you sure unprofitable trades are not possible? haven't tried it myself, but i don't see why it shouldn't work , if the amount of food matches up.

They aren't, the game won't allow them. Abuse control.

Brant

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #191: June 03, 2012, 06:49:50 PM »
would it still be abuse even if the difference were to come out of the trader's pocket?

Penchant

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #192: June 03, 2012, 06:57:45 PM »
would it still be abuse even if the difference were to come out of the trader's pocket?
That is the issue though I won't go into detail why, in case Tom decide's to allow unprofitable trades.
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fodder

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #193: June 03, 2012, 09:22:17 PM »
eh... it can be done anyway if the trade is the steward/lord

via direct trade
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LilWolf

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Re: Reworking Trade
« Reply #194: June 04, 2012, 10:06:12 AM »
What annoys me the most is that you can't make any sort of offer for 50 bushels, but you can make an offer for 150 bushels which seems pretty common. With no option for 50 bushels you can't broker a 150 bushel deal with smaller ones. It's actually impossible since there's no 25 bushels offer either or even 75. You need that exact offer to be able to fill it, making brokering for traders a pretty useless proposition.

This pretty much applies to anything with a 50 in it, though once you go to 250 you run into the option of filling it with a 100 and 150 bushel offer and so on, but those are much rarer to come by than smaller ones, making the order once more difficult if not impossible to fill.

So I'm stuck looking at sell orders for 20 or 40 or 60 bushels and can't do anything with them. They're completely useless.
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