Reworking Trade

[Eithad]

I agree with lilwolf, having those 20 and 40 bushel offers on the market is a waste of space, I suggest it go from 50 to 100, with no other increments in between.

[DamnTaffer]

I agree with lilwolf, having those 20 and 40 bushel offers on the market is a waste of space, I suggest it go from 50 to 100, with no other increments in between.

That makes trying to transfer food from a low production region basically impossible.

There are still reasons to allow unprofitable trades. It allows you to make friends with lords, and do it indirectly, where sometimes you wouldn't be officially allowed to do so.

Or perhaps to move food throughout a realm or dutchy.

[mykavykos]

Lets use Tom idea, but differently.

The penalty to a lord accepting offers must really HURT the deal. And penalties in gold will not hurt the deal. Lords can simply, as they are doing in one of the realms I play, sell the food for 10 gold and, no matter the penalties, in %, you give, the deal still be worthy.

The penalty could be made in the food itself. It Could make Lords think twice before close deals, but also would hurt too much the food suply of the realm if there are no traders.



Another option could be make any character must pay a standard fee for every purchase of food and another equal amount for each increment of 100 bushels. Traders would receive a huge discount in this fee. Something like 50-80% that could rise with skill level.
Example:
Scene 1 As no trader: I'm a lord and I'll close a deal worthy of 50 bushels of food for 10 gold per 100 bushels (5 gold). To make the trade I would need pay standard fixed fee of 30 gold to close the deal. This way my purchase would be 35 gold.
Scene 1 As a trader: I'm a trader and I'll close a deal worthy of 50 bushels of food for 10 gold per 100 bushels (5 gold). To make the trade I would need pay standard fixed fee of 30 gold to close the deal. As I'm a begginer trader I pay only half this amount, this way my purchase would be only 20 gold.

Scene 2 As no trader: I'm a lord and I'll close a deal worthy 500 bushels of food for 20 gold per 100 bushels. In this cae also aplies the 30 gold standard fee to close the deal, as well as another 30 gold for every increment of 100 bushels. A total of 250 gold to close the deal.
Scene 2 As a trader: I'm a trader and I'll close a deal worthy 500 bushels of food for 20 gold per 100 bushels. In this cae also aplies the 30 gold standard fee to close the deal, as well as another 30 gold for every increment of 100 bushels. As a experienced trader I receive a discount of 80% in the fee. The deal will cost only 130 gold.

This fee may be something tax for the region for every deal made.

In this option the trader would be able to see how much he will pay for the product and them discuss with the interested lord the price of the deal. This way would be easy to have a profit. Also the lords will not be too much hurt if they need bought food.

[Indirik]

The idea is not to make traders *required*. It is to make using traders more attractive. Fees on the order you propose would make trading completely unprofitable, even for experienced trader, and simply impossible for inexperienced traders.

Again, we are trying to control player behavior with the stick. Players hate this approach. We need to incentivize traders, not penalize lords.

[fodder]

um.. bring back luxury goods in some form? further away, etc... higher chance of "free" gold.

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does not solve the problem of lack of offers.

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stranger way of doing things..

lords/stewards do not get to complete trade.

when trade offers expire (ie.. no trader zip around matching them), the game automatically match up any and all offers that's within range somehow... (sunset turn change script?) - the profit from mismatched prices.... well it just disappears into the thin air? or maybe the banker should get a cut?

all offers to stay up at bog standard length of 7 days?

downside.. if you really need things in a hurry... you can't do it without trader... but then again, since offers expires left right and centre, you might be lucky and get matched up with an expiring one on any given day.

[mykavykos]

You are rigth, Indirik.

How did you made a role to the Adventures?
You simply said that only adventures can repair equipments and talk to wizards and things like that.

The role of the Heros?
They die bravely bringing honor to your family, give bonuses to their units, may get followers wherever they go and may inspire people with their deeds.

The priests?
They speaky about her gods to the people and only them may do this. They also are able to make the population of a region throw out their lord in favor to their gods. They travel in a different way as well.


The classes have their particularities, making them have a game in their own, and we must give something like that to the traders too. Some kind of ability, or abilities that only they may do and make worthy choose the class. I think that people that play traders like to play the commerce warfare.

Products
There could be not-essential products that only traders could buy/sell.
It could come from NPCs and the trader will sell it to PCs or this also may work well with a estate system were people may build their own shops in their estates. (maybe both options together?)

Caravan web
There could be an option to create an caravan web to speed the transfers between regions. The trader will need have a caravan in each region that the transfer in "pass". I don't know exactly which bonuses, but some kind of unkeep will be necessary.

If we go to something more oriented to PCvsNPCs, them we would have many other options to make the class desirable.

I think that this will not harm other players and will make play as a trader more fun.

[Foundation]

The idea is not to make traders *required*. It is to make using traders more attractive. Fees on the order you propose would make trading completely unprofitable, even for experienced trader, and simply impossible for inexperienced traders.

Again, we are trying to control player behavior with the stick. Players hate this approach. We need to incentivize traders, not penalize lords.

I agree in theory, though with the current system lords have all the say.  i.e. there is nothing really for traders to do when lords post few to no sell orders, and the price per bushel for sell orders are much higher than buy.

[mykavykos]

The idea is not to make traders *required*. It is to make using traders more attractive. Fees on the order you propose would make trading completely unprofitable, even for experienced trader, and simply impossible for inexperienced traders.

Again, we are trying to control player behavior with the stick. Players hate this approach. We need to incentivize traders, not penalize lords.

I forgot to question something.
How can't you see how a trader may make profit?

If a lord will spend 35 gold to make a deal by his own, using the scene 1 example, and through a trader he may spend only 25 (including 5 gold for trader profit) why he will not make the deal?

[Vellos]

1. As a lord, I don't want partially filling orders to be implemented. By NOT having that ability, I can offer different prices for different amounts of food. For instance, right now, I offer 30 gold/100 bushels for food purchases of 500 bushels or 1000 bushels. But, I offer only 20 gold per 100 bushels for trades set up at 100 bushels a pop. I also have 10 gold per 100 bushel trades set up for anyone wanting to do my region a favor and sell me food at a cheaper price/at a loss.

Meh, then make a checkbox: "allow partial completion" or "don't allow partial completion."

[Indirik]

@mykavykos: you proposed a system where a trader would have to pay a surcharge of, essentially, 6 or so gold per 100. That means that if a lord was willing to pay 30, the trader would have to find a sell order of under 24.

I really can't see any such system being implemented.

[Penchant]

Well one thing I was thinking of that could help with trade is lets say lord a is selling 500 bushels for 150 while lord b is buying 400 bushels for 150 and lord b could just get extra bushels. If this was allowed where the buyer gets more then asked it would allow for more trade though likely not a ton since it requires the buyer to be paying a higher unit price to end up making it so the seller gets all the gold that the seller asked for, but if selling 500 bushels for 150 while 450 are being bought for 175 then the extra gold goes to the trader with the the extra food going once again to the buyer. Also if it could be set up where the extra food goes to the trader if the trader is lord that would be a bonus for traders.

[Indirik]

So, I play two lord characters, both lords of cities. The way I work is to try and make sure I always have Buy orders open. That way people can always sell me food, if they want. And not just the cheesy 10/100 orders, but serious Buy offers. Then whenever I am traveling, or whenever I feel like it, I check the market and buy any orders that look good.

I decided to work out what would have to happen for me to decide to simply post offers, and let traders fill them for me. I can think of three things:

1) being unable to fill orders. I.e. lords can only post and hope a trader does it. I think this is unworkable, but list it for the sake of completeness.

2) Extortionate fees for non-traders. A simple 10-15% increase won't stop me. If you start getting to 50% or more, that might start making me think before I hit the button. But I will still do it if I think it is important.

3) greatly reduced availability of trades for lords. I can think of two things off-hand. First, restrict lords to trading with adjacent regions only. Second, make newly posted orders visible only to traders for the first three days after they are posted. Lords can only see them once they are 4 or more days old. This allows the traders to get an exclusive shot at all new offers before lords can act on them.

In addition, make more orders available to traders. Make it so traders can always see trade offers in their trader bonus range. (100 miles + skill based range). Then when they are actually at a marketplace, give them the extra 400 miles of range.

And finally, let traders partial fill orders. If it is that important to some lords that they not be partial filled, the let that be an option when posting.

But as things stand now, my trader on EC is feeling pretty useless. He's also a steward, and can't even find food to buy, let alone matching sets of orders to broker.

[Indirik]

Two more things:
1) if you add on extortinate fees for trading, margraves will simply raise taxes on their lords to compensate. This really won't accomplish anything.

2) allow traders to send a message to any lord who has an offer posted on the marketplace. This will allow the trader to negotiate with the lord to get them to post orders that will let them broker a deal. The lord may have a sell posted for 250 when the trader needs a 200. Or the trader my be able to broker if the lord is willing to pay a little more, or accept a little less. Etc. As it stands now, traders are essentially silent little robots wandering around from market to market, never talking to anyone, because you may be a 4 day journey away from being able to contact some who can probably help you broker a deal. So you never talk to them, and the deal goes unfinished.

[Penchant]

Two more things:
1) if you add on extortinate fees for trading, margraves will simply raise taxes on their lords to compensate. This really won't accomplish anything.

Only possible for the margrave/duke combos which is still very popular we shouldn't base it off this if we are trying to get rid of it always happening. And if the fee went both ways margraves would be smart and make the buy orders so the rural lords have to pay the fee instead of them, and if they don't want pay they just post the offers and let the traders do their job. Just pointing out that in my opinion the idea will actually work and I do like all your ideas. 

[mykavykos]

Interaction is a good thing, but I'm experiencing the lack of answer very common in the game, that also one of the rights of the players.

As steward, I'm trying buy food in EC and I sent many letters, receiving no answers. So, I think that a system that allow you to message the lord will be nice, but only will get result with those who care in answer.

I don't have the same time playing this game as others here, mas in my time playing this game I saw that things not mechanically supported or militaristic, will fall in the mists.
So, for this to work, in my opinion, there must be an option of "Bargain" or something like that where the trader make an offer, as when you change your share, and a message appear to the seller, or buyer, informing that he have a deal to look at. After sending the offer, the trader would have the possibility to send a letter.