The Zuma

[egamma]

He didn't say they did, but that they certainly can and, yes, have nearly done so numerous times.

"The Zuma can wipe out a realm for something trivial". Can't you say the same about our human realms as well? And isn't saying it about the Zuma just fearmongering, since nobody can actually name a realm that the Zuma have actually wiped out? I can name realms that were wiped out by Morek...Aurvandil...etc. Nobody can make a factual statement about a realm that was actually wiped out by the Zuma.

[Perth]

"The Zuma can wipe out a realm for something trivial". Can't you say the same about our human realms as well? And isn't saying it about the Zuma just fearmongering, since nobody can actually name a realm that the Zuma have actually wiped out? I can name realms that were wiped out by Morek...Aurvandil...etc. Nobody can make a factual statement about a realm that was actually wiped out by the Zuma.

Obviously.

The point is they can do it with such relative ease; like swatting a fly.

Of course, I think you already know that's his point, you're just nitpicking his statement.

[Vellos]

"The Zuma can wipe out a realm for something trivial". Can't you say the same about our human realms as well? And isn't saying it about the Zuma just fearmongering, since nobody can actually name a realm that the Zuma have actually wiped out? I can name realms that were wiped out by Morek...Aurvandil...etc. Nobody can make a factual statement about a realm that was actually wiped out by the Zuma.

The Zuma Coalition destroyed the Zuma.

*feels really old for knowing that*

[Vellos]

The Zuma Coalition destroyed the Zuma.

*feels really old for knowing that*

Though granted it was really more just a kind of technical renaming from what I understand... but still.

[egamma]

Obviously.

The point is they can do it with such relative ease; like swatting a fly.

Of course, I think you already know that's his point, you're just nitpicking his statement.

You're ignoring my point, which is despite what their abilities may or may not be, in 4+ years on Dwilight, they still haven't destroyed a single realm. And that's a very important piece of information to have.

[Feylonis]

Gee, another Zuma debate.

The thing about the Zuma is that while they haven't destroyed a realm yet nor used 100% of their might, the threat alone is enough that players, once faced with the Zuma card, simply fold. A war can literally be decided by whoever has the Zuma on their side. You're talking about an entity that does not face the risk of being destroyed, meaning they can throw everything they have into an offensive war and not think about repercussions. They are GM-mandated to exist, they are immortal. This is what players know, and they respond accordingly.

[Chenier]

You're ignoring my point, which is despite what their abilities may or may not be, in 4+ years on Dwilight, they still haven't destroyed a single realm. And that's a very important piece of information to have.

But have threatened realms multiple time, for ridiculous things, forcing them to accept outrageous demands.

All that piece of information gives you is that no one was stupid enough to go kamikaze against the daimons.

[Indirik]

players, once faced with the Zuma card, simply fold.

That's not true. Some realms have been perfectly willing to go toe-to-toe with the Zuma. The situation was resolved through diplomacy, however, and the war never happened.

A war can literally be decided by whoever has the Zuma on their side.

A war can literally be decided by whoever has CE on their side.

You're talking about an entity that does not face the risk of being destroyed,

Not true.

They are GM-mandated to exist, they are immortal. This is what players know, and they respond accordingly.

Not true. Not true. And not true.

Please stop spreading rumor, innuendo, and blatant falsehood as if it were fact.

[De-Legro]

This is what players assume, and they respond accordingly.

Fixed that for you

[Glaumring the Fox]

He who controls the Zuma controls Dwilight!!!

[Perth]

You're ignoring my point, which is despite what their abilities may or may not be, in 4+ years on Dwilight, they still haven't destroyed a single realm. And that's a very important piece of information to have.

Gee, another Zuma debate.

The thing about the Zuma is that while they haven't destroyed a realm yet nor used 100% of their might, the threat alone is enough that players, once faced with the Zuma card, simply fold. A war can literally be decided by whoever has the Zuma on their side. You're talking about an entity that does not face the risk of being destroyed, meaning they can throw everything they have into an offensive war and not think about repercussions. They are GM-mandated to exist, they are immortal. This is what players know, and they respond accordingly.

Exactly. They haven't had to actually destroy any realm yet, because they don't need to, they threat of doing it is all they need. And their physical characteristics, according to the mechanics of the game (the only thing players have to go off of), says they would have no problem doing so if they needed/wanted.

A war can literally be decided by whoever has CE on their side.

Oh, you mean the same CE that is quite widely regarded as being the cause of deadlock and anemia on Atamara?

[Indirik]

Exactly. They haven't had to actually destroy any realm yet, because they don't need to, they threat of doing it is all they need.

That is incorrect. There are realms around that have not given in to the Zuma's threats. There are realms that would be perfectly willing to go toe-to-toe with the Zuma. We might win, or we might lose. But we'd still do it. We just haven't had to do it yet.

And their physical characteristics, according to the mechanics of the game (the only thing players have to go off of), says they would have no problem doing so if they needed/wanted.

How do you know that? Have you ever faced them in battle? I.e. have you ever actually assembled an army with the express purpose of attacking the Zuma, and then gone ahead and done so? Have you ever assembled a coalition of four or five realms and tried to stand up to the Zuma? Or have you always rolled over and done whatever they wanted?

Now, if you stand up to the Zuma, you just might find yourself wiped out. We don't know what will happen, because no one has ever tried to do it before. Maybe the Zuma will back down. Maybe you'll fight and win. Or maybe you'll die in painful agony as the Zuma burn your realm to cinders. But until you actually try it, you can't say "We know this will happen".

Oh, you mean the same CE that is quite widely regarded as being the cause of deadlock and anemia on Atamara?

Sure. And if you don't like the CE example, then substitute Perdan. Or Sirion. Or Arcaea. Or, at least until the last invasion, Enweil.

Also, the idea of "Whoever has the Zuma on their side wins" is factually incorrect. Kabrinskia had the Zuma on their side. And the Zuma wiped out Kabrinskia's army. Kabrinskia didn't win that war, they ended the war in a stalemate. And perhaps I'm not remembering correctly, but as far as I can recall the Zuma have never stepped into a war and given the victory to one side or the other.

[Feylonis]

Over the many, many Zuma threads that have cropped up, I'm pretty sure it was asked whether it was possible for player realms to destroy the Zuma, and the answer was that no, the Zuma are here to stay (insert a few hundred veiled insults in between as was common in the old Locals boards).

[Indirik]

The Zuma are "here to stay" in the sense that the dev team will not be removing the Zuma. As to whether or not a player-run coalition can successfully band together to destroy the Zuma, who knows? But if they are to be removed, then it must be the players that do it themselves.

[Dishman]

Being a GM controlled faction doesn't mean they are untouchable. Sure, they make surprising shows of force here and there...but they've done less damage than most realms against one another. A (good) GM is supposed to make the interaction engaging and fun...so far it sounds like most of that has been RP. That doesn't mean there isn't tactical fun to be had.

Every realm surrounding the Zuma could be blighted and there would still be plenty of room for every character displaced. The only reason people haven't prodded the Zuma is fear of losing fancy titles and perceived ownership of whatever region they squeeze gold out of.

One of the most fun times I've had on Dwilight was the initial colonization of the Divides in the creation of Swordfell. The hopelessness of oppressive starvation, horrible roads, and near constant monster-sprouts was !FUN!. The pressure of a real challenge is engaging, and the more engaged people are the more they interact with one another.

The mere idea that a coalition of realms could go against the Zuma make my pants sticky. I can't be the only one that would burn half of Dwilight for the joy of it. One day....one day...