Roleplaying

[Luegg]

Currently on EC Caligus there is an ooc debate of how roleplays should be read

Basically on wiki (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Roleplaying) it states that if a char roleplays to think something in a public message, this is information for players, but no character should know it.

This has been disputed by some and the argument goes: Tom said that if its a public role-play everyone can react to it as if in the known. Supposedly Tom said this in Sirion.

I find role-plays to be one of the most important aspects of BM so this is really important to me. I would like to call Tom out to clarify his position.

[Indirik]

I don't know that Tom will offer an "official ruling" on this, but consider this edit on the wiki. It's the part where Tom removed the "What you can't see you don't know" paragraph. Also, check the talk page for some discussion on the matter.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/index.php?title=Roleplaying&diff=prev&oldid=95028

Essentially, these things are non-enforceable. There are no roleplaying police. No one who can enforce that "You weren't there, so you can't know what happened." And what if I come up with some plausible reason that I would now, but there's a reason that your character doesn't know? Like, if you RP that you did something that no one knows, but I RP that I was hidden in a bush. So, who's RP trumps the other's? You'll just end up in an OOC argument about it, and everyone will get angry.

The general rule that has been accepted for a few years now, and you could probably find a quote from Tom on the DList about it if you were really interested, is this: If your character gets a message in-game, then your character knows the contents described/related in that message. If you don't want someone to know something, then don't tell them.

Would it be nice if everyone could come up with some reasonable explanation for why they know? Sure. But don't expect it.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Woo I remember having this discussion back when my dude on Dwi was being charged for heresy. Indirik said the same thing to me back then, which was: Don't tell secrets if you want to keep them. Something along those lines really.

If you want something private, then send it personally to the character(s) in question. Now that we have the contacts list, it's even easier. If the other character isn't in your realm or guild or religion where they would be selectable without the need to establish contact, then somehow obtain their contact info. Then you can send a personal RP to them so no one else would know. And if someone else does find out, your buddy probably shared it, in which case you know to whom you shouldn't divulge secrets.

[Luegg]

Indirik, are you saying Tom missed deleting this part:

---
Example 2:
One day you read a roleplay, again sent to the realm, in which another character, Lord Haha, thinks to himself, 'I wish I could kill all of these rodents and become the Tyrant of our realm!'
In this example, no matter what your character is doing, your character has NO knowledge of what Lord Haha has just thought. It would be very bad roleplay for you, then, to have your character respond with something like "That's awful Lord Haha, and I call on the Judge to banish you!" In fact, if you responded like that, your character would be a mind-reader (definitely a no-no in a low-fantasy setting like Battlemaster - and in a medieval setting, you'd be burned at the stake for Witchcraft).
In conclusion, just because a roleplay is sent to you via "to the entire realm," does not automatically mean your character will know anything that that happens in the roleplay. Use your common sense - don't respond to another character's internal thoughts, or private discussions taking place half a Realm away.
---

I have always enjoyed this part, a clear case for ooc/ic differentiations with several nice ways how to use it. Have I been wrong all this time? Also a LOT of the players agree with this excerpt from the wiki and play by it. This talk of "secrects should be kept" is a completly new to me and also an undocumented way of playing.

[Mcloud]

I think that if a character roleplays a thought and clearly states that it is a thought, then NOONE will know about it. Not being able to roleplay one's thoughts takes roleplaying out of the equation entirely. Roleplaying details about a characters thoughts and other details about the character just makes the character more real. How many novels have you read in which there is not one description about a character or the thoughts that run through their heads? Explaining thoughts is a way to get insight on the character.

Roleplaying makes the game more real, more fun. Developing the characters through a roleplay brings life to them, whether by roleplaying thoughts or by describing ones actions. It is what makes the character who he is. Take that away and there is no meaning to ever roleplay. Take away the details about the character, and he becomes a name on a webpage followed by his stats. And that is not what battlemaster is.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

It's just that there are a lot of different players, and no way to know how each one of them would act. In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to worry about people messing with your RPs for their own selfish advantages. Unfortunately, it does happen in BM. So depending on who your trust, how secret/damaging your message might be, it's up to you to make the final decision on who you want among your circle.

[Indirik]

If you send it in a message to everyone, then everyone knows about it. That's the ground rule. And it's the only ground rule that can possibly work in an MMORPG like we have. Maybe you could make it work otherwise in a smaller group of friends or private gathering, but not in the open environment we have in BattleMaster.

Now, how a person knows something, and what they do with it is an entirely different issue. But if you RP that your character is thinking rebellious thoughts, then I wouldn't expect someone to reply to that as if it had been an open public conversation. But I would think it perfectly reasonable that others could observe that your character is unhappy with the government, increasingly discontent with the ruler's actions, etc. Because if you didn't want me to know, then why would you be directly telling everyone in the realm that this is what your character is thinking?

The alternative is for people to continually be rubbing your face in things that you have to remember that your character doesn't know, but you as a player know. Like, for example, assume that I had an infiltrator character that wanted to assassinate a duke of the realm. If I sent several RPs about my character running over plans in his head about how he was going to kill the duke, would you expect the entire realm to just ignore it? If I went to try the hit and saw that for the next several days there were people out patrolling the streets to make it harder, should I start screaming "Powergamer!" because there are police patrols around when there really isn't any valid reason? (Or at lest one that I know of.)

Or how about if I RPd my character thinking about the coming rebellion, and listing the names of my conspirators, and how we're going to get the army sent away so the plan works easier. Is the entire realm supposed to just go along with the orders, knowing full well that as soon as they get four regions away for the capitol, that the entire home guard army is going to rebel?

Can you see how this kind of thing is entirely unfair to the rest of the players of the game, making them try to remember to separate all this information that the player knows but not the character? You're forcing everyone in the realm to just have their character blindly go along with this, knowing that their characters are walking into a trap.

And then let's not forget that you /always/ have the opportunity that someone just innocently slips and uses the info IC because they forgot that the information was sent as private thoughts. Then how do you resolve those kinds of things? Especially if the slip happens when the "thinker" character doesn't see that the information is being passed. Like it gets sent to a foreign ruler. And then that foreign ruler thinks that the info is perfectly valid IC info and spreads it around.

And lest you think I'm just making this stuff up, I've personally seen some of this stuff happen, and heard of more.

[Luegg]

Indrik, the examples you created are exactly the way I understood this game. To be able to be an infill and carefully prepare a plan for the assassination of the duke and let other players know by roleplays. And yes I would consider it very bad form if they would start patrolling streets as crazy just because of my roleplays.

I would also be most happy to be on the receiving end, knowing fully well as a player my character is being invited  to be sloughtered and my character still going because he does not have a clue.

The alternative is really boring. I am an infill, I go and I put down a duke. And than I can roleplay how I carefully planned it. No wait scratch that, I cant. Because if I do, judge has legitimate reason to banish me for I made my secret known even if I was not caught.

My goals as a player differ severely from the goals of my character. That is one of the reasons I love this game. To effectively kill role plays by making it regular messages with different colour ( basically those that read them know them) is really a step back from IG/OOC distinction. I love to read secrets going on and I understand that my character should not use them. Its hard and mostly it gets abused. But here you are saying it is not abuse at all.

[Indirik]

Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to get that atmosphere that you are expecting from the players of BattleMaster at large. Obviously at one time the expectation was as you describe. That changed several years ago. It is essentially impossible to do, as you have a wide-spread, uncontrolled player base. If you had a small group of players, such as a guild or small religion, you may be able to get away with what you're describing. But for the game as a whole, that's not an experience you're going to get in all realms, on all islands.

I am not sure how long you've been playing, so I don't know if you were or were not around for the start of the Far East Island as a "role playing island".  I wasn't either, so I'm not the best person to explain what happened.  But they tried an all out in the open approach to things, requiring everything to be RPd out in the open, for everyone to read, and even posted on the RP e-mail list. Eventually it all fell apart.

Perhaps someone who was there can explain how it failed?

[Haerthorne]

Looking at the old roleplay archives, which I think went back to 2004, there was a lot of ooc arguing over the rpg list, usually involving the realms of Nighthelm and Soliferum.

[De-Legro]

My understanding from the last time this came up

• It would be nice if people didn't use RP's as a source of information when their character clearly doesn't have access to it
• It is impossible to police by the Dev Team so if players use the info, too bad
• There is nothing to stop REALMS enforcing RP rules like this. I know I have seen members accused of witch craft for acting on info from RPs

[BardicNerd]

If I sent several RPs about my character running over plans in his head about how he was going to kill the duke, would you expect the entire realm to just ignore it? If I went to try the hit and saw that for the next several days there were people out patrolling the streets to make it harder, should I start screaming "Powergamer!" because there are police patrols around when there really isn't any valid reason? (Or at lest one that I know of.)

Without question, yes.

Or how about if I RPd my character thinking about the coming rebellion, and listing the names of my conspirators, and how we're going to get the army sent away so the plan works easier. Is the entire realm supposed to just go along with the orders, knowing full well that as soon as they get four regions away for the capitol, that the entire home guard army is going to rebel?

Ideally.  I doubt that everyone would, given that a lot of people are probably going to want to save their power in the realm by any means even if it means violating OOC/IC separation, but ideally, yeah, and I bet it would be pretty fun for everyone involved.  But I doubt it will happen.

Can you see how this kind of thing is entirely unfair to the rest of the players of the game, making them try to remember to separate all this information that the player knows but not the character? You're forcing everyone in the realm to just have their character blindly go along with this, knowing that their characters are walking into a trap.

That's part of roleplaying, separating stuff you know from what your character knows.  I don't see how it's at all unfair if BM is a roleplaying game.

And then let's not forget that you /always/ have the opportunity that someone just innocently slips and uses the info IC because they forgot that the information was sent as private thoughts. Then how do you resolve those kinds of things? Especially if the slip happens when the "thinker" character doesn't see that the information is being passed. Like it gets sent to a foreign ruler. And then that foreign ruler thinks that the info is perfectly valid IC info and spreads it around.

Slips happen.  One hopes that people can be forgiving of accidents, just as one hopes that people would not deliberately misuse OOC info.  Experience shows that neither of these are always the case, of course, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them up as ideals.

[Indirik]

Or how about if I RPd my character thinking about the coming rebellion, and listing the names of my conspirators, and how we're going to get the army sent away so the plan works easier. Is the entire realm supposed to just go along with the orders, knowing full well that as soon as they get four regions away for the capitol, that the entire home guard army is going to rebel?

Ideally.  I doubt that everyone would, given that a lot of people are probably going to want to save their power in the realm by any means even if it means violating OOC/IC separation, but ideally, yeah, and I bet it would be pretty fun for everyone involved.  But I doubt it will happen.

I would absolutely hate it. No fun for me at all. Maybe it's because I've had some bad experiences with it. I've seen people post stuff specifically so they could rub other people's noses in it. Or "think" insults at other characters, knowing that the other player isn't supposed to act on it.

IMO, nothing good can come from exposing your secrets to the world, and then expecting other people to pretend they don't know them.

And, BTW, it has nothing to do with saving power "even if it means violating OOC/IC separation". That's a blanket generalization accusing a lot of very good players as willing to abuse the game. That's crap.

That's part of roleplaying, separating stuff you know from what your character knows.  I don't see how it's at all unfair if BM is a roleplaying game.

I think that in some cases it is unfair, especially if it drags on for a while. You're expecting other players to be involved enough in your story line to remember everything they know as being IC or OOC info for their character.  A month later, I'm supposed to be able to recall all the information you've provided in your RPs as something that my character knows or doesn't know, especially after the messages scroll off the history? I think you have some extremely unrealistic expectations. Even if people want to do that, mistakes will happen. In a small tabletop RP environment, sure. But BattleMaster isn't that small environment. You can have upwards of 100 individual players involved, if not more. And each of these players can have up to 5 separate characters. IMO, you need to temper your expectations to the environment. And I think your expectations are a bit unrealistic.

[egamma]

Indrik, the examples you created are exactly the way I understood this game. To be able to be an infill and carefully prepare a plan for the assassination of the duke and let other players know by roleplays. And yes I would consider it very bad form if they would start patrolling streets as crazy just because of my roleplays.

I would also be most happy to be on the receiving end, knowing fully well as a player my character is being invited  to be sloughtered and my character still going because he does not have a clue.

The alternative is really boring. I am an infill, I go and I put down a duke. And than I can roleplay how I carefully planned it. No wait scratch that, I cant. Because if I do, judge has legitimate reason to banish me for I made my secret known even if I was not caught.

My goals as a player differ severely from the goals of my character. That is one of the reasons I love this game. To effectively kill role plays by making it regular messages with different colour ( basically those that read them know them) is really a step back from IG/OOC distinction. I love to read secrets going on and I understand that my character should not use them. Its hard and mostly it gets abused. But here you are saying it is not abuse at all.

Either send the roleplay without naming your assassination target, or send it just prior to performing the assassination, or send the RP's AFTER the assassination--possibly with the assistance of the judge, if you get caught. Most infils send the messages after the fact.

[Anaris]

I would like to state, for the record, that I absolutely hate Tom's official position on this. I think it's a terrible offense to people who truly enjoy and respect good roleplay, and I wish with all my heart that it weren't so.

But I also agree, with all my heart, that it has to be.

Personally, I would never do such a thing, and I never tolerate it in realms where I have influence.  If I roleplayed my ruler character thinking something, and someone else in the realm responded to it as if it were spoken, I would have my pet Judge immediately start an investigation of that person for witchcraft and consorting with demons.

But too much of the playerbase of BattleMaster neither understands nor cares about the rules of RP.  Even leaving aside the ones who know the rules perfectly well, and gleefully break them simply to gain a benefit for their own characters, there are far too many people who join BM purely for the strategy aspects.  Who don't even really understand that there is a difference between IC and OOC knowledge.

Is that a bad thing, from a roleplay and atmosphere standpoint? Absolutely.  But it's also the reality we're dealing with, and one we cannot change, no matter how much we'd like to. At least not without reducing BattleMaster's playerbase from just under 1000 to just under 100.