Spying: Good or bad for the game?

[Indirik]

So, another topic that often comes up: Spying on other realms. By spying I mean passing one realms plans to another realm, such as movement orders, line settings, strategic plans, etc., to an enemy realm. Do you think this is perfectly acceptable, or that it hurts the game?

First, some reasons to spy:

• Sometimes characters just don't like the reasons their realm is in a war, and don't want their realm to win.
• The other realm is paying someone to do it, either with gold or promises of titles/positions.

Second, some reasons why spying is bad:

• Reduces trust in other players. Lots of people complain that the people in power often don't share information, or plan things behind closed doors. Well, guess what? It's not because the people in power are greedy idiots who want to hog all the power. It's almost always because they know that there are people that will immediately send all these plans to their enemies.
• We've all seen this happen: A war starts, and in the next two days your realm gets four brand new characters that start in your realm. "*groan* here come the spies..." The prevalence of spies causes people to be suspicious of new players, and new characters. As a result, it can often be hard for new players to become trusted members of a realm.

So what do you think:

• Is spying OK? Does it add to the game, or make it more frustrating?
• Have you ever found yourself not discussing future plans in your realm because you were worried about spies?
• Have you ever had your military plans frustrated because you knew someone in the army was sending your orders straight to your enemies?
• Is it OK to search OOC for people that are willing to do it? i.e. asking an RL friend to do it, or asking on IRC if someone will move a character to an enemy realm to become a spy.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I don't like it, but there's nothing that can really be done about it.
Yes.
Yes.
No.

[Bedwyr]

So what do you think:

• Is spying OK? Does it add to the game, or make it more frustrating?
• Have you ever found yourself not discussing future plans in your realm because you were worried about spies?
• Have you ever had your military plans frustrated because you knew someone in the army was sending your orders straight to your enemies?
• Is it OK to search OOC for people that are willing to do it? i.e. asking an RL friend to do it, or asking on IRC if someone will move a character to an enemy realm to become a spy.

1. Hard to say.  It can add a lot of fun, but it makes it harder for new people.
2. No.
3. Yes.
4. Hard to say, but certainly only if you have ties between the families in question and use IC methods of communication.

[Sacha]

I picked #4. Spying was part of pretty much every war in history, so it's only normal it happens in BM as well. Personally, I've been a spy once. My character was asked to stick his neck out and travel to the enemy realm as a plant. He was banned on some fabricated charges, hurled a couple insults at the ruler for good measure, and fled to the target realm to hopefully ascend the ladder and gain access to their higher councils. After about two weeks I got so bored in the realm I left again.

Thrice I've recruited a spy to report on an enemy realm. The first time, I just sent a letter after a big battle asking if anyone was tired of being sent to another defeat and wanted to help facilitate his realm's final defeat and surrender, thus ending the war. I got 3 or 4 positive replies within the day. The second time I took a noble who had a bit of a falling out with our ruler and had him 'defect' to the enemy as a plant. The third time I contacted an old enemy (who boycotted a tournament I hosted) who had led a failed rebellion in his realm, after which he fled to his ally (my enemy) and agreed to spy for me, and in return he would 'get what was coming to him'. After his usefulness expired he was kicked to the curb, so to say. I've heard of others outright buying spies, too. All that I consider acceptable forms of subterfuge.

But then there's people who just recruit their RL friends, more often than not people who've never played BM at all, and have them join enemy realms with the sole purpose of spying. They have no IC reason at all for doing so, their characters just up and decide that they want to be spies, and they know exactly who to talk to in the other realm. That's incredibly cheap in my book. It's not even that difficult to plant or recruit a spy through 'acceptable' means, but they won't even take that trouble, probably because recruiting RL friends is a surefire way of making sure the spies don't get a change of heart and stop reporting, or become double agents. For shame...

[Telrunya]

    * Is spying OK? Does it add to the game, or make it more frustrating?
    * Have you ever found yourself not discussing future plans in your realm because you were worried about spies?
    * Have you ever had your military plans frustrated because you knew someone in the army was sending your orders straight to your enemies?
    * Is it OK to search OOC for people that are willing to do it? i.e. asking an RL friend to do it, or asking on IRC if someone will move a character to an enemy realm to become a spy.

1. It's perfectly fine. It adds to to the game. Just like a character can rebel against the Ruler, or a Duke can secede away from a Realm. That's all part of IC and nothing wrong with that.
2. Hmm, I don't worry too much about it usually. Sometimes I just share with trusted Nobles because it are delicate matters and not so much due possible spies, but sometimes I know those Nobles may or will be sending things to others, yet I still do it.
3. If you know there is a spy, try to use it to your advantage. I'm sure there have been military plans of my character/Realm ruined due spies, albeit I can't come up with an actual example right now, but that's all IC and totally fine. I've had more military plans frustrated because other influential Nobles strongly felt different on matters
4. I would go here with no. Use IC methods. Nobles of OOC friends are just the same as any other random Noble and shouldn't get preferential treatment or be used to spy without it happening IC like it could to any other random Noble. Though I will accept there may be grey areas here in certain situations.

[Luegg]

1. Spying is great IG, its a fact of life and completly reproducible IG in all possible variations.
2. No (but i dont wanna win that much).
3. No.
4. Bad bad bad! where is the fun in that? Also it could be considered power gaming or even ooc clanning. Much better (and most likely much harder) to get a spy IC.

[De-Legro]

1. Spying is great and allows for smaller realms to sometimes upset the balance
2. Never really been in a position to worry about it
3. Again never been in a position to worry about it.
4. No this is NOT okay. If for some IC reason you recruit a spy that just happens to be played by a friend sure, but I am against OOC recruitment. I just so happen to run a spy ring. By ensuring that everything happens IG and IC I in effect limit the effectiveness of my group and set up a far bit of constant work for it to remain effective. I need to have 2-3 spies in any one realm to be able to verify information for example, I often get info too late as I can't just ask my friend to log in and check his messages etc. I also run the constant risk of my operation being outed by my own spies. I should probably also note that I don't run the group exclusively for a realm, I'll sell info to anyone that offers the right price

[LilWolf]

Spying is always bad for the game in my opinion. Just look at what happened in SoA a while back. There used to be about 20 characters in the realm that were included in military planning. One spy and poof, you were down to the council and marshals. That one spy took quite a bit away from 10 or so players with his actions.

Simply put it does more harm than good. All it does is create mistrust and that ends up taking fun away from everyone.

[^ban^]

So what do you think:

• Is spying OK? Does it add to the game, or make it more frustrating?
• Have you ever found yourself not discussing future plans in your realm because you were worried about spies?
• Have you ever had your military plans frustrated because you knew someone in the army was sending your orders straight to your enemies?
• Is it OK to search OOC for people that are willing to do it? i.e. asking an RL friend to do it, or asking on IRC if someone will move a character to an enemy realm to become a spy.

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
No.

I think spying is fine until it leaves the game itself because then there are significantly fewer options available to deal with it.

[Vellos]

So what do you think:

• Is spying OK? Does it add to the game, or make it more frustrating?
• Have you ever found yourself not discussing future plans in your realm because you were worried about spies?
• Have you ever had your military plans frustrated because you knew someone in the army was sending your orders straight to your enemies?
• Is it OK to search OOC for people that are willing to do it? i.e. asking an RL friend to do it, or asking on IRC if someone will move a character to an enemy realm to become a spy.

As a huge fan and propagator of the intrigue side of BM, I am very pro-spying.
1. It adds. It gives players a new means of forming cross-border relationships, and deepens them as it introduces moral qualms. I think of Riombara/Irombrozia cross-border espionage for this. Many Riombarans fed information to Irombrozia at one time or another, or helped us in various ways, and in so doing added new depth and complexity to their characters. Moreover, as Sacha noted, the process of recruiting spies is usually very player-intensive, and egalitarian. Spies are not usually high-ranking when they START spying. Most spies I have worked with are ambitious young players, besides a couple old-hands at espionage that are always around.

2. My character's realm is not his team, so yes. My characters have more in common with their co-religionists, with their secret society comrades, with their guildmates, with their personal friends and correspondents. So yes, I plan in secret quite often: not because I'm afraid of spies in the realm, but because I don't believe in anonymous team mates. If I have a goal, I establish mission parameters, identify key needs, and enlist the proper people to accomplish those needs. If it's a large-scale land-war, yes, I probably need a whole realm. But most of the things I enjoy don't require that.

3. Yes. And vice versa.

4. NO. Not at all. Not under any circumstance. Nor is forum-recruiting or IRC-recruiting acceptable.

[Stue (DC)]

Speaking mostly technically, betrayals are funny IC stuff, but I can hardly see any spying that is not related to some level of OOC abuse.

Betrayals are committed by characters who already developed their personalities, but lost faith in their loyalties for any reason.

Spying means someone is planted to the other realm, and be it character specifically came from the other continent, or new-created character, it is the same - it is just use of slot for transmitting messages and his mere existence is based on OOC plan, and OOC plans and plots kill the best part of game, over the fact that they are really unfair.

Sometimes character leaves one realm to join the other for spying, but such case I would mostly put in category of betrayal (or fake betrayal) - he is known and developed his history, he needs to gain confidence in new realm to achieve anything, so we can say all is purely IC, and that is intrigue (or can be).

[vonGenf]

I can hardly see any spying that is not related to some level of OOC abuse.

Good spies don't get caught.

[Stue (DC)]

OK, but  how do you convince someone to become spy? If he is already in your realm and leaves to the other realm, that again falls into category that I provisionally called betrayal or false betrayal. The same applies to someone from other realm whom you convince to spy his own realm.

That is very different from "slot use" way of spying and is possible the place where we can draw fine line between good contribution to fun in game vs. adverse effect on fun.

[De-Legro]

Speaking mostly technically, betrayals are funny IC stuff, but I can hardly see any spying that is not related to some level of OOC abuse.

Betrayals are committed by characters who already developed their personalities, but lost faith in their loyalties for any reason.

Spying means someone is planted to the other realm, and be it character specifically came from the other continent, or new-created character, it is the same - it is just use of slot for transmitting messages and his mere existence is based on OOC plan, and OOC plans and plots kill the best part of game, over the fact that they are really unfair.

Sometimes character leaves one realm to join the other for spying, but such case I would mostly put in category of betrayal (or fake betrayal) - he is known and developed his history, he needs to gain confidence in new realm to achieve anything, so we can say all is purely IC, and that is intrigue (or can be).

Your definition of betrayal vs spying is arbitrary. If they are feeding information to the enemy it is spying. The spying MIGHT be the result of a betrayal, but it is by definition SPYING. So far everyone agrees OOC spying is wrong, which is really a no brainer, its OOC of course its not right. However some of us put in a lot of time developing IG spy rings. Most of my spies haven't really "lost the faith". Most are lower in the realm, weren't ever that involved in the realm, or simply like the amount of gold I pay them. I think I only have one spy on the books that purposely wants to get revenge on his realm.

[Draco Tanos]

Your definition of betrayal vs spying is arbitrary. If they are feeding information to the enemy it is spying. The spying MIGHT be the result of a betrayal, but it is by definition SPYING.

It'd be classed as treason, which is a form of betrayal.