Author Topic: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.  (Read 33291 times)

Tom

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Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Topic Start: March 09, 2012, 12:45:57 PM »
This is for the far future, after all the other changes we need to do first. But I'd like to throw it out there.

I'm not happy with the way Honour and Prestige work in the game anymore. So I am trying to re-think the system. And I was quite happy with the pie concept I once had. This is a very rough sketch, help me flesh it out:

  • The attributes should be independent of each other
  • They should have clear purposes
  • They should balance against each other

Here's what I envision should be measured in attributes:
  • Actions befitting a knight - fighting, conquering, supporting your people, plundering the enemy, etc.
  • Success or failure in battle.
  • Reputation - a player-driven attribute
  • how fearful/brutal you are, basically the equivalent of the fear/love part of the TO system

JPierreD

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #1: March 09, 2012, 10:38:04 PM »
Interesting... What kind of effects are you envisioning for those stats?
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Zakilevo

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #2: March 10, 2012, 01:11:22 AM »
So are we trying to implement the Paragon and Renegade system?

Indirik

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #3: March 10, 2012, 02:32:06 AM »
For those of us not up to date on current games, how about some details on what that is?
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Norrel

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #4: March 10, 2012, 03:02:48 AM »
For those of us not up to date on current games, how about some details on what that is?

"Evil" actions contribute to the renegade score, "good" ones contribute to paragon (Mass Effect is pretty morally blurry though so maybe that's not the best description). The consequences of those actions are pretty negligible and only lead to more options in dialogues.
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Tom

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #5: March 10, 2012, 08:48:45 AM »
No, that is not the same idea.

I am trying to build a judgement-free system. What it should record is facts, not judgements.

Zakilevo

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #6: March 10, 2012, 08:52:35 AM »
Well yeah. If a character does something good - like helping peasants instead of looting them to death, he gains a paragon (or call it something else like Honourable or Chivalrous). Isn't that the idea?

Duvaille

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #7: March 10, 2012, 01:20:00 PM »
Tom,

So you want to track "facts" and not "opinions". With such attribute distributions one could roughly try to simulate either how the character is viewed by the others or then focus on reporting his inner growth and processes. Do I understand you correctly that the latter is the one you wish to do with the pie chart? But if this is so (as I am assuming now), then would this knowledge be there only for the player? If it does not become "reputation", ie. "judgements made by the others", then what functionality it can have, when the character is the only one who truly knows this data?


Tom

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #8: March 10, 2012, 02:26:36 PM »
Stats will be public, just like they are now.

But I want them more transparent. It should be more obvious what each stat means. Oh, and I'd like to have them go both up and down.


Example: A stat that tracks your combat experience.
It would consist of one value simply incrementing for every battle you've been in, maybe not 1:1 but with larger or longer battles giving more points.
And one value that tracks your success. Gets incremented for victories and decremented for defeats. Again, not necessarily 1:1, and in addition to size, it might als try to track the importance of battles (I don't yet know how).

Duvaille

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #9: March 10, 2012, 07:33:53 PM »
One element you mentioned is reputation as a player driven attribute. With such a thing we could get rid of the artificial "prestige" altogether and replace it with completely player driven prestige and infamy. You could give every character a pool of prestige that they can distribute to other characters on the continent. You can pick as many characters as you like, but the more you give, the less each individual gets, but the added total would be higher with many targets than with just one.

Then have that completely player driven prestige mean something. If a ruler has high prestige, it will have a realm wide effect of slightly easier control. With a low prestige the control gets a penalty. Same could work with dukes and region lords, though a region lord would not need that much prestige for somewhat optimal bonus. But this would give a good incentive for rulers to appoint lords that enjoy real prestige. And prestige would matter for individuals who need it for effective region control. Who you give the prestige would remain anonymous.

You could do the same with player driven infamy. Both infamy and prestige would act as both quick social guides to who's important and who's not, as well as have in game effects, though infamy might not need any further "bonuses", as it would be a stigma of its own. Infamy and prestige would not cancel each other out, but having high values in both would signify a controversial character, though perhaps infamy could give a very slight prestige reduction if it is high.

Prestige could be further defined as a stat that is kind of a vote of confidence for naming a noble that the character believes is an exemplary noble, both competent and trustworthy. RP explanation would be that prestige is an accumulation of all the plentiful rumors in the noble society.

Example 1: Someone gets really annoyed at Lord Evilstan. He has tagged many players with infamy, but now he cancels out all the rest of them and only leaves the mark of Lord Evilstan for maximum individual effect. The effect would still remain small, as it would take several hits for infamy to even be displayed at all.

Example 2: King Kepler breaks his promise and sues for peace despite of what he had promised to all the nobility in Keplerstan. Several nobles get slightly irritated and remove the prestige mark, causing a significant drop in prestige for the king.

Example 3: A lonely knight never writes to anyone, but diligently participates in the battles, follows orders but is somewhat invisible. He gains other stats, but nobody really gets to know him so he forever remains low on prestige. Other people around will know that he is somewhat of a loner, with no prestige and no infamy, and will not expect much of him. He gains no recognition, and would then be a bad candidate for lordship as well. If he wishes for more recognition, he will need to do something about it and become a bit more vocal.

Charles

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #10: March 10, 2012, 07:37:07 PM »
More points for battles in regions with TOs.
"how fearful/brutal you are, basically the equivalent of the fear/love part of the TO system."
We would need more posible actions in order for this to have much effect.  We would need more "courtier type" actions that are brutal.  Might be an interesting region maintenance options for warriors.  There would need to be possible benefits to the region beyond the stats for the character.

Duvaille

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #11: March 10, 2012, 07:45:39 PM »
There could indeed be many stats tracking combat experience. What I would really like to see is something that we could call "valor", which would only be gained in very important battles, and would depend on both on the outcome and your role in the battle, as well as the existing valor you already have. This value would stick and be practically never reduced.

To encourage conflicts, you could for example gain it by participating in a battle where you are on the attacking side and defeat the defenders of a city or stronghold when not having a significant CS advantage. Or you could have it like current fame, where certain conditions give you a point, and if you do the same thing again, you don't get an additional point. A highly valorous character would be known to have participate in all kinds of adventurers.

But the bottom line is that "valor" should be something rare, and it could dramatically influence how many and what type of units you can command.

Duvaille

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Brutality / Ruthlessness
« Reply #12: March 10, 2012, 07:48:32 PM »
If brutality is one stat to track, you could have it increase with looting, brutal takeovers, torture, assassinations and murderous setting in attacks. But you would also get it when holding harsh courts. This would be the mentioned "courtier type" action. The bonus would be that the higher your "ruthlessness" is, the more effective you are with that type of activities, and perhaps a very ruthless character could inspire his men to deal with more damage in melee, perhaps with an added risk to own casualties (more own casualties than added damage).

Charles

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #13: March 10, 2012, 07:56:30 PM »
My concern about torture and harsh courts being examples of how one could get brutality points is that you need to be a lord or judge.  I would want regular knights to be able to do it too.  I guess there is hanging rebels...

Duvaille

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Re: Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.
« Reply #14: March 10, 2012, 08:50:15 PM »
Charles,

Yes, there is hanging rebels and there is also looting. And there is being brutal while takeover is in process. There are plenty of buttons to push in this idea.