The Terran-Kabrinskian Conflict

[Chenier]

Also, I would like to point out that everyone who is complaining about the "unlimited troops" of the Zuma would like to look and see that they are only using one unit, that was already outside of Zuma lands, in this war. That seems pretty limited to me...

Not only is this wrong, but that's also because they weren't attacked yet.

Do you honestly think that they won't bring the rest of their might once attacked? Because in our experience, the Zuma are very trigger-happy whenever it comes to acting against the 'moot. If they believed some random adventurer over their own ambassador and all of us over an extremely obvious forgery and went on raging against us for it, then why should we not believe they want us to attack them just so that they can launch a full invasion?

[Solari]

Food for thought:

The Zuma are played by a person.  People often have inscrutable motives for the things they do.  Sometimes, others discern those motives, be it through communication or good detective work.  There are no tricks involved, preferential treatment, or axes to grind.  Some of you have convinced yourselves of the impossible because the person that plays the Zuma is too decent to wade into this stuff.  If they did, no doubt someone would comb through their posts and try to discern their identity by their writing style.  Who's the one being !@#$ on and held accountable to a different standard of conduct, again?

[dustole]

And beeing an Asylon player, I am a bit puzzled that Haktoo suddenly got all buddy-buddy with Kabrinskia, but maybe im just jelaous, since I and others of Asylon really put some hard work into getting friendly with the Zuma, But its clear to me now that it was a waste of time befriending Garret, who I enjoyed exhanging letters with, both IC-wise and OOC-wise, and the fact that he and I worked for a mutual beficial goal, peaceful and good relations on the common border between Asylon and the Zuma, we sold food, we did our best to apprehend Terrance(but later I was informed by Haktoo to let it be, he was no longer important) and most of all, we left the Zuma in peace, doing our best to not annoy or disturb them, just as we where told to do... So by playing by their rules we kinda lost it...
(bah, now i am starting to sound bitter so enough about my hurt feelings  .)


1. Asylon isnt really ganging up on Kabrinskia, she have been poking us and provoking us with demands and threats for as long as that nation has existed, we have played nice as we was more focused on getting stability in our nation that doubled or trippled over just a few days/weeks. Eventually we had enough when she was threatning us that she would set the Zuma on us if we got involved in the war.

Haktoo all of a sudden got buddy buddy with Kabrinskia?  That "buddy buddy"  aspect took months... really,  months to accomplish.  This isn't something that happened overnight.  It was made quite clear to the rulers of Barca, Asylon, Terran and D'hara that this was happening.  They all knew I was making frequent trips to the Zuma yet you all still did nothing to communicate effectively with the Zuma.

Asylon dealt with Garret.  That was your own mistake.  If you wanted to be peaceful with the Zuma you should have dealt directly with them.  Garret had his own agenda.  I am willing to bet that he shared very little of his conversations with Asylon to the Zuma.  Also, I never threatened anyone with the Zuma.  To say such a thing is a blatant lie.  I told Glaumring that if the war degraded and it didn't stay as Terran vs Kabrinskia then the Zuma would get involved.  I was in Zuma land talking to Haktoo about Kabrinskia declaring war on Terran to teach them a lesson when Terran declared war on Kabrinskia.  I had already worked out the back up plan with them in case I was attacked by more than one realm.  The attack was supposed to come in the spring.  That is why I warned Asylon to stay out of the war.  No threats were made.  I even said OOC from the beginning when Barca declared war that the Zuma would be involved.  Nobles other than Kabrinskians knew about the Zuma's involvement weeks before they ever arrived in Kabrinskian lands.   I even asked Terran to name their terms for peace.  I told them that the Zuma were coming and that I didn't want this war to degrade further.   I made no demands or threats I just asked for the terms they wanted for peace.   

The response I got weeks later was that Hireshmont will give me peace for 1 month if I declare war on the Zuma.  How stupid is that...  "Attack your protectors and we will leave you alone for 1 month"   Dumb Dumb Dumb.  I know that offer wasn't really meant to be serious, but it seemed like a very dumb thing to say.  Terran seems to do just about anything it can to antagonize the Zuma and then throw a hissy fit when the Zuma get involved. 

[Anaris]

I made no demands or threats I just asked for the terms they wanted for peace.   

To be fair, a great many people will read something of the form, "If A happens (that might be bad for us), then B will happen (that will be bad for you)" as a threat.

[Sacha]

Right, because the "fun" it provides to non-involved observers is worth the stagnation on whole realms' war efforts?

The pleasure of watching other people's misery is not good basis for game policies.

Speak for yourself. If there was ever an MMO called 'Laugh At Their Pain' I'd sign up immediately.

[Darksun]

Speak for yourself. If there was ever an MMO called 'Laugh At Their Pain' I'd sign up immediately.

I laughed and then felt bad for humanity as a whole. Then I went about reserving www.laughattheirpain.com.

[Glaumring the Fox]

What Grimrog and Graeth have said about Kabrinskian/Asylonian relations prior to the war is true. We merely avoided being attacked because we had an influx of new nobles and Caerwynian nobles. Terran can remember me saying that an attack was coming soon. Kabrinskia then decided to push D'Hara so Asylon and D'Hara signed the alliance months before we actually made it official. We would wait till a war to start to actualize it. Then Kabrinskia started pushing Terran, Vellos fell into the trap of insighting the Zuma. I told Terran that we would only go to war if Kabrinskia attacked the same they said about us, since both of our sides were loth to help instigation. The Terrans declared war first but they had been pushed, we had all been pushed a long time, but I knew them declaring war first would damage our alliance and chances for sympathy. Now the war is being fought by Asylon merely in defense, because we honour our contract but out contract was broken by Terran starting the war even though they didnt start the hostilities.

Kabrinskia is an alien realm of easterners, it has been in the region a very very short time and already caused a lot of havoc. I think the thing that bothers the old realms is that our unwritten agreement was we would never use the Zuma in a conflict.We would ignore them. The Eastlanders do not have our culture nor history with the Zuma, like all things one day the Zuma will recognize how good it was before the Kabrinskians took them out of the garden.

[Vellos]

The Zuma GM mentioned an OOC witch-hunt against Garret. Not sure what that's about, but there was very much an IC effort to persecute Garret and make him feel unwanted and useless. I wasn't aware there was anything OOC going on. I never heard the whole circumstances of his departure from the game; I hope it wasn't about Garret's IC treatment... because Garret's IC treatment... was IC. You can't expect to be a human representing daimons and not be hated by other humans. It's inhuman behavior. Not tolerated (ICly).

I'll say again what I've said many times: the Zuma are a vacuum for every event in the area. No matter what we do, no matter how we go about it, everything always ends up with the Zuma. It seems increasingly impossible to have anything happen that is independent of the Zuma. I'm not sure why Tom believes this is fun, but presumably he does.

The point is, though, that we had a really interesting war shaping up. We had a war where both sides had mobility, and both sides had a demonstrated ability to beat the other side and invade their territory. That was fun. Now, that war is done. It is not done because any RP was resolved, or because any of the things that make BM wars interesting have happened. It is done because the GM has decided that we shouldn't have a war.

Terran's characters are behaving the way Tom has always said we should in relation to daimons: scared, terrified. We aren't heroic souls longing for a death in flames and glory. Everybody saying we should just attack because daimons aren't that bad is arguing against everything Tom has ever said about daimons. If they attack us, we'll defend, but we'd never attack. Which means that we all get to sit on the border and do... nothing.

[Anaris]

I'll say again what I've said many times: the Zuma are a vacuum for every event in the area. No matter what we do, no matter how we go about it, everything always ends up with the Zuma. It seems increasingly impossible to have anything happen that is independent of the Zuma. I'm not sure why Tom believes this is fun, but presumably he does.

Replace "the Zuma" with "Terran" or "Kabrinskia", and you'll probably find that it's the same.

They're a power in that area. Trying to pretend they don't exist, or expecting that they'll pretend you don't exist, seems to me to be pretty unrealistic.

Think of them as another realm, and a lot of your complaints about them suddenly sound really absurd.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I'm just going to ask that this thread be closed again. People can't keep from turning this into a flame fest about the Zuma.

[Vellos]

Replace "the Zuma" with "Terran" or "Kabrinskia", and you'll probably find that it's the same.

They're a power in that area. Trying to pretend they don't exist, or expecting that they'll pretend you don't exist, seems to me to be pretty unrealistic.

Think of them as another realm, and a lot of your complaints about them suddenly sound really absurd.

No, it's not the same.

Kabrinskia has multiple players. I can have spies in Kabrinskia. Kabrinskia can change. Kabrinskia can be destroyed without the fear that Tom will swoop down and say, "Sorry, not allowed" and veto the action (and before you hasten to laugh at that idea, go review everything any Dev has said about how the Zuma are meant to be there: it implies that removing the Zuma is not credible). In sum, the Zuma are unfightable. It doesn't matter if you win, you can still reasonably expect to lose. It doesn't matter how careful your politics are, the GM will veto it. It doesn't matter if it's the first real war in the area in many players' game memory: the GM isn't there so you'll have fun, the GM is there to.... who knows? Apparently some people know, and aren't saying.

The normal realm is composed of players with different desires and aims who generally want to have fun. Neither condition is true for the Zuma. The average realm can credibly be expected to stay dead. This is not true for the Zuma. The average realm wants to have politicking. This is not true for the Zuma. The average realm does not consist of nobles who enjoy sitting in one region for months on end. This is not true for the Zuma.

If the Zuma behaved like a normal realm, I'd be fine with that.

[Vellos]

I'm just going to ask that this thread be closed again. People can't keep from turning this into a flame fest about the Zuma.

Then we'll start another thread about the Terran-Kabrinskia war... and it'll become about the Zuma again.

The Zuma are part of the war.

[Perth]

Think of them as another realm, and a lot of your complaints about them suddenly sound really absurd.

I could think of them as corn pudding too, and a lot of our complaints would seem pretty silly.

The fact of the matter is, once more, they are not just any other realm. In fact, that's the whole point we're trying to make: they are not like just any other realm.

[Telrunya]

*bites his tongue* So, because I'm not particularly interested in reading the same complaints yet again, what's up with Barca and Aurvandil? Seems like the Moot might have another headache to worry about? I thought Barca used to be close to Aurvandil, what happened to that?

[Kellaine]

*bites his tongue* So, because I'm not particularly interested in reading the same complaints yet again, what's up with Barca and Aurvandil? Seems like the Moot might have another headache to worry about? I thought Barca used to be close to Aurvandil, what happened to that?

ya I am curious about that as well.