Anti-Clan Policy Discussion

[Chaotrance13]

First off, as a note and general request: This is not the place to be discussing the merits/demerits of clans or other OOC groups. Tom has already stated here that he believes it is time to implement such a policy. This thread will undoubtedly get heated - if you see any of the behaviour displayed by several posters in the "Fontan's Surprising Strength" thread, please use the "Report to Moderator" link at the bottom of the offending post instead of responding to it.

So, as stated above via the link provided, Tom believes that it is time to implement an Anti-Clan policy based on the evidence in that thread. I am opening this thread to provide a place for a discussion to take place so that a proposal can be established and submitted. When we reach a point where we have a degree of consensus on the issue, I will edit this post with details of the proposal.

Now, first off, yes I do feel strongly on this issue. I have played games where I had to be up at 6am GMT to attack my opponent without fail in tandem with two other players, and communicate out-of-game via IRC. I also had to orchestrate these attacks as the equivalent of a Marshal/General in BM. Those were generally called "Alliances" in that other game, but they were essentially clans. I don't want to do that all over again. I don't care about losing characters, or losing a war in BM. I do care about losing a war when, as stated by Anaris before, clans have a 1.5x-2x advantage on your average realm.

That, to me at least, goes against the "Fair Play" section of the Social Contract. The question of whether to refer the issue to the Magistrates or Titans has plagued me of late, but I decided not to because seeing what people were capable of in that thread made me think I would become an OOC target - that players would target my in-game family purely because I raised the issue with Tom in the first place or because I dared to challenge their behaviour.

To me, that is part of the wider issue. If you go against an OOC group, you will become a target. And eventually, if nothing is done, you will probably give up and leave what is a very enjoyable game. So, you either submit and let them destroy your fun, or you fight back and risk being marked because of it. So, I say "no more".

To kickstart the discussion, we need to understand what the goal of such a policy would be, why we need one, where it would be placed, and what the punishment is for breaking it. This is just a basic framework, and changes would be welcome. I'll start off with giving my personal answers to these questions.

What is the goal of an Anti-Clan policy?

To quote Tom:

The goal needs to be that no realm is ever controlled by any group of OOC friends, no matter if they call themselves clan, not-clan, classmates, family or whatever.

Why do we need such a policy?

Simply put, clans can have a polarising effect on the playerbase, usually on the negative end of the spectrum. There are some, like Revan, who argue that they do have some beneficial effects. But the issue is that OOC groups tend to have the goal of working towards power and victory, rather than fun. They may see what they are doing as a lot of fun - but it is at the expense of other players. That is a contravention of the Social Contract, specifically section two. Tom and the Devs have stated before in other threads that this is not a game which is suited for powergaming in even the slightest degree. You can't win BM, that has been said time and time again. We need a policy like this so that we can empower ourselves as the players to stop any OOC group from taking away our enjoyment of the game. By having such a policy, we can enable Tom/The Devs to be able to use the tools at their disposal to help in that aim.

Where would it come under?

Part of me believes that it should be an addition to the Social Contract. Rather than creating a completely new document, we already have one which governs how players should behave towards one another. Why not modify the Social Contract to include such a policy, either as an addition to a currently existing section, or a completely new one in its own right. That way it would implement some safeguards (e.g. making accusations with no proof being against the rules).

What would the punishment be for breaking it?

I would firstly say that the "one chance" rule is still kept in effect. Tom has warned one specific group of players about 2-3 times about their behaviour, as an example - that should be that one warning used up. After that, action can and should be taken if there is enough evidence that something is clearly wrong. Punishments for breaches of the Social Contract (assuming such a policy is placed there) go from temporary account locks to permanent account locks. That may also include deletion of characters that are proven to be in an OOC group, but I would most likely say that may have to be decided by either the Titans, or the Magistrates.

Over to you.

[egamma]

Wasn't something like this added to the social contract already?

Perhaps we should make a rule like "no more than 4 people who know each other IRL should play in the same realm."

Weaknesses? Would they simply form a bunch of tiny federated realms?

[Duvaille]

Wasn't something like this added to the social contract already?

Perhaps we should make a rule like "no more than 4 people who know each other IRL should play in the same realm."

Weaknesses? Would they simply form a bunch of tiny federated realms?

This is a commendable effort. That kind of a rule might be a good one to have. Even if they formed tiny realms, they would have very hard time securing the support of the majority of these tiny realms, as there would be other players there as well. Or, they could do so, but then they would need to include the players as well and do it well enough to discourage a switching of the government.

They could still form a secret society and try to manage things from behind the scenes, but that already is a whole lot more difficult aspect.

And - of course - there would be difficulties in enforcing the rule. But it might at the very least make it harder to get away with it. I don't have the slightest idea on how it could be enforced or even detected, but if it is viable, I am sure some others have ideas.

[fodder]

seriously.. what does it mean "know 4 people irl"?
you see 10 people in same irc channel.. does that disqualify them?

i don't think this is something that can be dealt with by anything other than "tom sees dodgy clan. bye dodgy clan."

[GoldPanda]

1. How do you identify clans? Short of people owning up to it, how do you prove that a group of players constitute a clan? What is the difference between a clan and a group of friends who are playing together without power-gaming? How do you prove that power-gaming is taking place? How do you distinguish a clan from an elite army formed by the most active nobles in a realm? When looking for a realm to join, I tend to go for realms with players that I already know. Does that make me a clanner now too?

2. This is a PvP game. I should care about whether players in my own realm are having fun, but why should I care about the feelings of players in opposing realms? Would you concede a chess match if your opponent tells you that losing at chess hurts his feelings? If they're not having fun while losing, they can surrender the war or leave the realm. Surely winning does not breach "Fair Play". So when would you declare "Fair Play" to be breached by an opposing realm?

3. What if my realm is winning simply because my realm's players have better activity? What if my realm just happens to be full of turn-junkies? What level of activity would trip off people's "clan detector"? What if the enemy realm accuses my realm of being a giant clan? Are we innocent until proven guilty? Guilty until proven innocent? How do you even prove this either way? How do you prevent punishments going to innocent players?

My problem with your complains so far, Ravier, is that your main complaint is NOT that some clanners are allegedly taking over Fontan, and depriving their players of fun. A few players in Fontan have indeed complained about this, and I am much more sensitive to such complaints. You do not even have a char in Fontan, have no stake in it, and would not even notice if some clan started taking over the government.

Your main complaint is that your realm is losing because your opponents are more active than you are. And before you say "because they're a clan", yes, they admit it in this case, but what about the general case in the future, where an actual clan would surely deny it to evade punishment? It all goes back to: How in the world can you tell the difference between a clan and a regular realm? Why should I risk being punished and labeled a clanner just because my realm is more active than yours? Where do you draw the line?

[Chaotrance13]

1. How do you identify clans? Short of people owning up to it, how do you prove that a group of players constitute a clan? What is the difference between a clan and a group of friends who are playing together without power-gaming? How do you prove that power-gaming is taking place? How do you distinguish a clan from an elite army formed by the most active nobles in a realm? When looking for a realm to join, I tend to go for realms with players that I already know. Does that make me a clanner now too?

2. This is a PvP game. I should care about whether players in my own realm are having fun, but why should I care about the feelings of players in opposing realms? Would you concede a chess match if your opponent tells you that losing at chess hurts his feelings? If they're not having fun while losing, they can surrender the war or leave the realm. Surely winning does not breach "Fair Play". So when would you declare "Fair Play" to be breached by an opposing realm?

3. What if my realm is winning simply because my realm's players have better activity? What if my realm just happens to be full of turn-junkies? What level of activity would trip off people's "clan detector"? What if the enemy realm accuses my realm of being a giant clan? Are we innocent until proven guilty? Guilty until proven innocent? How do you even prove this either way? How do you prevent punishments going to innocent players?

My problem with your complains so far, Ravier, is that your main complaint is NOT that some clanners are allegedly taking over Fontan, and depriving their players of fun. A few players in Fontan have indeed complained about this, and I am much more sensitive to such complaints. You do not even have a char in Fontan, have no stake in it, and would not even notice if some clan started taking over the government.

Your main complaint is that your realm is losing because your opponents are more active than you are. And before you say "because they're a clan", yes, they admit it in this case, but what about the general case in the future, where an actual clan would surely deny it to evade punishment? It all goes back to: How in the world can you tell the difference between a clan and a regular realm? Why should I risk being punished and labeled a clanner just because my realm is more active than yours? Where do you draw the line?

So you are now attacking me because I've done what Tom asked in the other thread and opened a discussion? If you maybe read what I have said constantly - I don't !@#$ing care if Westmoor wins or loses at this point. If it gets destroyed, if Ravier dies, it's only bloody pixels and I'll make the most of what time that character has left if the end is inevitable. What part of that do you not understand? Or are you just biased because I have two characters in a realm you hate? Then again, you've already said as much by saying "I don't give a damn about players in other realms". No surprises there from you, frankly.

So I'm not allowed to speak if I don't have a character in a realm where there is potential powergaming going on? Do you want to report me for speaking my mind while you're at it? I'm clearly guilty of thought-crime, it seems. And your solution to the problem is "leave the game you !@#$ing pussy, we don't want you here". Since when do you get to decide who plays and who does not?

That power is reserved for Tom and the Devs. Not you. Not me. But if Tom asks for a proposal or discussion, then that can be done. The call is his at the end of the day, he can choose to listen, or not. I opened the discussion because he asked for someone to do it, I took the initiative, if you don't like it, then take it up with him.

[GoldPanda]

Yes, yes, yes. Accuse me of ad hominem attacks. Play the victim card. Put words in my mouth, like my non-exist hatred for Westmoor or demanding that you leave the game. I am familiar with how an internet forum works. Thanks.

Can you please skip all that and address my main complaint against your points? Namely, how do you tell the difference between a clan and a group of players who just happen to be more active than you are?

So you don't care about what happens to Westmoor. Great. Guess what, I don't care what happens to Fontan either. I care about you proposing changes to the Social Contract that wouldn't even make sense in Bizarro world. If it's not provable, you'll just turn BM into "accuse the other realm of being a clan first". I have zero interest in playing that game.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Easy, ladies. To answer your question, GoldPanda, you can tell it's a clan when said families are always in the same realm, always work to support each other's characters without much if any IC talk, operating more like one mind than that of several individual people. They show up in the same realm all at once, rather than at random intervals like most new arrivals.

[egamma]

I too would like to see answers to GoldPanda's questions. They are pertinent to the question; indeed, they must be answered before any sort of policy can be created.

Ravier, there was no attack on you. GoldPanda merely restated and emphasized what your primary complaint is.

[egamma]

Easy, ladies. To answer your question, GoldPanda, you can tell it's a clan when said families are always in the same realm, always work to support each other's characters without much if any IC talk, operating more like one mind than that of several individual people. They show up in the same realm all at once, rather than at random intervals like most new arrivals.

My characters--through random chance--seem to find themselves in the same realms with the Jeckyl family over and over. I don't know Andrew outside the game, nor do I coordinate with him where I play my characters. We apparently like playing for similar realms. But a check for family connections could flag us.

As for little IC talk, well, that would fall under the activity IR, right? Some of the realms I play in have very little chatter, or bursts of chatter for a few days and then silence for weeks. That doesn't mean that clans are in those realms.

Now, the multiple realm arrivals we could maybe check, maybe even put some automated warnings in place for Tom to get.

[GoldPanda]

Easy, ladies. To answer your question, GoldPanda, you can tell it's a clan when said families are always in the same realm, always work to support each other's characters without much if any IC talk, operating more like one mind than that of several individual people. They show up in the same realm all at once, rather than at random intervals like most new arrivals.

Well, my chars tend to stick together with a few prominent families that they like and trust from experience. The Cheniers. The Forbes. The Telrunyas. The Bjorns. And so on. If you join several large realms, you're going to get overlaps in the families. There is no way around that.

My chars generally support these families because they know that the favor would be returned someday, without prompting, promises, or even a formal acknowledgement of mutual assistance. And if, gods forbid, one of our realms get pwned, we'll probably all end up retreating/migrating to some allied realm together.

So:
[X] Always in the same realm.
[X] Help each other without IC messages.
[X] Show up in a realm at around the same time.

How do you tell me apart from the clanners?

[Tom]

1. How do you identify clans?

By their behaviour. The Dev Team does have the tools available to make such a call once a potential group has been pointed out to us. We don't do any kind of automated checking, which I think is fine because unless a group has a noticeable impact on the game so someone asks us to look into it, there isn't a problem.

I'm against any kind of hard limit such as "x players who know each other". There are many families, people from the same school, etc. who play the game with no negative impact.

For me, a "clan" (or whatever other word you want to use) is not just people who know each other, but who also actively collaborate and who play as a group more than as individuals.

The reason this is detrimental to the game is that the second point removes internal politics from the game, and social dynamics is a much larger part of BattleMaster than strategy and war gaming. It turns BattleMaster into something it is not.

2. This is a PvP game. I should care about whether players in my own realm are having fun, but why should I care about the feelings of players in opposing realms?

Because their characters are your enemies, but the players are not.

3. What if my realm is winning simply because my realm's players have better activity?

That is a different discussion that has nothing to do with this. Your actual point is already sufficiently covered under question 1.

[Chaotrance13]

Can you please skip all that and address my main complaint against your points? Namely, how do you tell the difference between a clan and a group of players who just happen to be more active than you are?

It's damn difficult. I don't deny that in the slightest, that is why this discussion was opened, so we as a playerbase could look at the pitfalls of any changes that could be made as well as any advantages to it.

The issue of whether a group of players is a clan or a bunch of active people is probably the single biggest issue to enforcing any punishment against suspected players. That is the other side of the coin, and if we cannot find a solution that is reliable and fair, then there's no point in implementing any kind of policy. And that's how it will have to be if it comes to it. But we had best look at every angle before coming to a conclusion.

What I have taken offence to is the idea that I am doing this for personal gain or profit. And at the core of it, I have concerns based on previous encounters more than anything else. What would we do if, say, the GOONS (or GoonSquad, I think) came to BM? They'd mass-join a realm and probably alter the fabric of it completely. I've seen what groups like that do, and it isn't pretty. There are probably mechanics and statistics that can be used to ring the alarm bells and have it stopped before it starts, though. Something similar may be available for emigrating to a specific realm, or a mass creation of characters to a realm as well.

[Tom]

It's damn difficult. I don't deny that in the slightest, that is why this discussion was opened, so we as a playerbase could look at the pitfalls of any changes that could be made as well as any advantages to it.

Sometimes, you don't have to be sure if the actions are adequate.

My promise was to break apart clans, not to kick them out of the game. If - just a thought - the reaction to finding a clan were to randomly deport half of them to some randomly selected other game worlds, that clan's influence in the realm would be broken. If we are wrong and they weren't a clan after all, then nobody has lost a character, and while it's probably not something they will thank the Dev Team (or Magistrates or whatever) for, if you weren't in that realm because of your clan then finding yourself somewhere else isn't that horrible.


And, to put that to rest, I think the Magistrates would be a good place to sort this out. The Dev Team can support them with a few numbers, but the points I outlined above are not a code matter and warrant some discussion.

[fodder]

always work to support each other's characters without much if any IC talk,

ic talk... just because they don't include everyone and their dog in their messages.... i mean. you don't even need irc or external communications, all you need some script that select certain individuals and communicate ingame or failing that.. just a lot of clicks...