Author Topic: [Forum Game] World in Revolution 1861, Sign-up Thread  (Read 85998 times)

Muskeato

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To be fairly honest Japan did not have properly an army at this time, but a feudal system in which that large amount of Samurais were conscripted in times of war and gathered under banners. It would be like calling 200k knights for a crusade, in terms of organization and logistics.

But as said, they could arrive in waves and use the trains to move to more populated areas able to absorb their impact in the economy, and sustain them.

They'll either have to go north (and therefore not actually being useful in the war) or march across a lot of desert to reach Texas, with at best dirt tracks to go along. Sounds like fun!

Vellos

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Then it would be quite a journey...

With a lot of dead Japanese people...
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Dante Silverfire

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With a lot of dead Japanese people...

Ever wondered if that was perhaps the point? ;)

Wait and react to what actually happens, instead of what just seems to be happening.
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Vellos

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Ever wondered if that was perhaps the point? ;)

Wait and react to what actually happens, instead of what just seems to be happening.

The point was to kill your own army?

How curious.
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Dante Silverfire

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The point was to kill your own army?

How curious.

One of the major dissidents to reform in Japan were the many people of the Samurai class in the 1860's. If those dissidents were "disposed of" then stability would be easier to restore, and progress made. However, anything short of a legitimate war would only cause more unrest.
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Duke of Britain

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What's with the Chinese (considered barbarians) trying to do this kind of diplomacy with the landlocked Swiss? :|

This treaty really looks a bit too modern-like to me...maybe it is just me, but i don't know, i think it is kinda unpausible and unrealistic, opnions?

Frymonmon

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The Qing should be an isolationist country, shunning foreigners.

The United States would have a near revolt on its hands if, in 1861, randomly invited 200,000 Japanese soldiers to march through the West. The Japanese Government would be in turmoil too, as they were still hyper-sensitive of outsiders at this time.
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President Jefferson Davis of the Confederate States of America in World in Revolution: 1861
Founder of World in Revolution

Dante Silverfire

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The Qing should be an isolationist country, shunning foreigners.

The United States would have a near revolt on its hands if, in 1861, randomly invited 200,000 Japanese soldiers to march through the West. The Japanese Government would be in turmoil too, as they were still hyper-sensitive of outsiders at this time.

Yes, but history has already changed. The Japanese didn't reform until 1868, so any perceptions of how the Japanese would react in 1861 under the Shogunate, cannot be assumed to be true. Real history never had Emperor Komei actually act as an Emperor should. He was a figurehead. At this point in the game though, he is a fully assumed Emperor with power.
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Duke of Britain

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How exacly do you think he would gain power? In three months because uhe declared he wanted power?

Since its creation WiR had the characteristic of punishing countries that tried to reform too quickly in a wrong way, act foolishly and that kind of thing...By your logic Russia can become a fully democratic country with no serfs or oppressive nobility in 3 months and have absolutely no problems.
I'm not saying you should have been couped because you are trying to reform, however Qing is acting too strangely and should behave more like China on 1861 instead of like in say, 2000.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 10:25:50 PM by Duke of Britain »

Frymonmon

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Russia tried to do a dramatic change, and the Tsar was Assassinated.
Austria tried to do a Constitution, then the Nobles rose up against the Emperor.
While my WiR is different than OTL, all of it is within plausibility. 200,000 Soldiers shipped to the United States, however, is not. 
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President Jefferson Davis of the Confederate States of America in World in Revolution: 1861
Founder of World in Revolution

Vellos

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The Qing should be an isolationist country, shunning foreigners.

If we follow history.

However, Qing modernization began in the 1870's. They tried to copy many elements of Japan's Meiji Restoration. The Qing's foreign affairs office was founded in 1863 historically. Also, the Qing, as I have been playing them, have been careful to avoid stepping on Confucian toes in most things. Perth posted summaries; I did some quiet but fairly significant things to ensure that China's Confucian elements would stay loyal. The Self-Strangthening Movement and other modernizing efforts were going on just a little bit after the current game-time.

Empress Dowager Cixi was a conservative with a strong Confucian power base. Meaning that if she had opted for reform, she might have been able to push it through. Consider the Hundred Days' Reforms, for example. Again, if Cixi had been reform minded, as I am portraying her, China's fate might have been different. The most radical anti-foreign sentiment doesn't come until the later 1890's and the early 1900's, as even more Unequal Treaties are signed, and China suffers a string of military defeats.

China had large, powerful reform elements. The next emperor after Tiongzhi was a reformist (until exiled by Cixi). Without Cixi to coordinate conservative elements, it is hardly clear at all that China would have been so ripe for chaos during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900. The Qing Dynasty's fall in 1912 was hardly inevitable, and certainly not predestined by the characteristics of Chinese culture. China has had many periods of great openness and foreign involvement. You claim it's like China in 2000. I claim it's like China in 1680, or under the Song Dynasty. Isolationist periods came and went, and Chinese isolationism 1860-1912 was not a necessary feature of China's culture.

Regarding the modern trappings of the Swiss-Chinese treaty... not really. Exchange agreements were common in that period. China establishing an embassy abroad is highly unusual but, again, had Cixi been a different type of person, it might have happened.

But even if it would never have happened, that doesn't matter. The game is boring if all we do is play a marginally different history with all the same characters. The point is to swap out the cast and see what happens.

And regarding 200,000 soldiers going to the US... I agree. But I think there is a major difference between "physical impossibility" and "unlikely to occur due to personalities of a few powerful actors."
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Duke of Britain

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Most Europeans of the time considered the Chinese nothing more than a bunch of barbarians...
Besides, Switzerland is landlocked, how would this treaty even work?


As for artisans, how, even with sea access, would you send them all the way to Europe? Historically this could provoke the europeans.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 10:37:10 PM by Duke of Britain »

Vellos

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I'm not saying you should have been couped because you are trying to reform, however Qing is acting too strangely and should behave more like China on 1861 instead of like in say, 2000.

Also, the only unprecedented reforms Cixi has made thus far are:
1. Legalizing opium (which technically had already been done under the Unequal Treaties, but the Qing repeatedly violated them)
2. Establishing embassies

China had a decreasing amount of closed cities with every treaty; but under previous dynasties, China had no closed cities. It is not beyond the pale of traditional Chinese political discourse to have free trade and open borders. Legalizing opium would indeed piss off many Confucian elements; Cixi did some things this last turn to mitigate that, but, more importantly, even if that did cause some instability, other actions (land redistribution, anti-corruption, bureaucracy retraining, military deployments) do more than enough to maintain macrostability.

Establishing foreign missions began in the 1860's anyways for the Qing, but didn't really get as big as I'm making it until the 1900's. Cixi personally resisted this reform, which was proposed by at least the 1870's. Implementing it in 1861 is indeed novel and early, but it's hard to imagine an uprising over the matter.
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Vellos

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Most Europeans of the time considered the Chinese nothing more than a bunch of barbarians...
Besides, Switzerland is landlocked, how would this treaty even work?
As for artisans, how, even with sea access, would you send them all the way to Europe? Historically this could provoke the europeans.

The first statement is completely false. Most European powers recognized that they could bully the Qing on the coast; but even after they captured Peking in the Boxer Rebellion, when Cixi fled inland, the European powers couldn't pursue. The Europeans may have been racist, but they did not regard the Chinese as uncivilized barbarians. They regarded them as a technologically and culturally backwards, but still very organized, powerful group. Because they were.

Being landlocked doesn't matter. I don't understand why it would. Just because two countries don't share a border doesn't mean they can't have an embassy.

And they can get to Europe on fascinating inventions called boats. You can buy a ticket. Especially if you're a guest of a recognized government. Do you seriously think there were no Chinese people in Europe in 1861?
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Dante Silverfire

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Perhaps I misunderstand the way this game is supposed to work. I thought the point was that, while we should take actions that are realistic for our nations, we can also attempt to change the way history went. This would involve changing directly the personalities of the leaders of our nations. That should be allowable.

IF we go too crazy, then the GM can simply say that something failed or we met with rebellion.

As far as power goes, those who have power have it because others let them have power, or assume they have it. If the Emperor can convince his people he has power, then he will have power. Simple as that. A military coup, to replace the Tokugawa Shogunate, goes a long way towards helping that.

I know y'all have played this before, and made the game, but is there really a problem with each new playing shaping and changing the way things are done and perceived? I'd think it would be boring if it was always the same.
"This is the face of the man who has worked long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them."