Netherworld Prison

[Tom]

I, as the player of the Netherworld forces, am a bit unhappy with the fact that there are no serious consequences for characters. Yes, I am talking about mortality. However, I don't want to return to the seemingly random "oops, you're dead".

Here's a thought:

I would like to rework the Netherworld prison. Right now, it works like every other prison, including bounties and being set free after a week. I don't think that captures the spirit of it at all.


My idea for this, and it could be extended to the rogue prison as well (yes, characters on all worlds are occasionally imprisoned by rogue):

• remove bounties - Daimons don't care for money. For rogue prison, replace bounties by bribery, with a lower value, but success not being automatic, i.e. you give the guards money and maybe they let you go, but maybe not.
• no time limit - you are not automatically let go after some days.
• escape option for everyone - not just infiltrators, everyone can attempt to escape.
• mortality - starting on day 3 or so, you have a chance to die in this prison, the chance increases with every day you stay.

Thoughts?

[Anaris]

Don't forget to keep Netherworld separate from Zuma in the code...

I'm not sure about the time limit or the mortality. The (forced) time limit makes no more sense for nobles than it does for Daimons, since there are plenty of cases where they would be perfectly willing to defy law and custom to keep a certain noble from coming out of prison.

For mortality, do you mean that nobles in Netherworld prison have a chance to just up and die? Not to be executed, but die randomly?

[LilWolf]

I could see these for Netherworld. Indeed, they sound fun, but for rogue prison on all islands? Certainly a no for the chance of death. It's sucky enough already that a random monster group captures you and takes you out of the game for, possibly, a week. The no time limit is a bit questionable as well for those circumstances.

[Indirik]

Love it.

Except, as LilWolf says, I don't care for the chance of death in Rogue prisons.

[Yorkie]

Wimps.

I say bring it.

Too many people are making it past their thirties. It should be a honorific position make it to your sixties! :p

I was wondering when something about the prison setup was going to be changed. My infiltrator got caught and executed last invasion about halfway through. This one got caught almost instantly and nothing happened for about 3 days before I paid the ransom and ran away screaming like a little girl.

[Dante Silverfire]

I agree with the mortality change for Daimons perhaps, but not in general for all rogues. The specifics of the invasion make this viable, but I don't see it working well if people start losing characters elsewhere. Now, I could possibly be for it depending upon implementation and if it was understood that mortality was better for the game as a whole if spread out, but I am not yet convinced of that.

I agree with the others for all rogues.

[fodder]

...organic/living prison. whole new meaning to dinner is served.
---
obviously this would be a bt thing only... unless you rethink the whole mortality thing in general.

[Charles]

I am fine with the torture.
Perhaps a drop in Honour/prestige after escaping so that the noble cannot command as large a unit (if the unit is executed I suggest retaining the honour/prestige, let them be remembered with what they had accomplished)
I am fine with the death as well, so long as it is not everyone.
I would somehow want to keep a time limit.  Perhaps the chance of escape can increase in the same way that the chance of death does.  As in:

Days in prison	%escape	%death
1	0	0
2	0	0
3	10	10
4	20	20
5	30	30
6	40	40
7	50	50

With these numbers a noble in prison would have a 50% chance of surviving.  I would like to have a higher chance of survival, these numbers are just an example.  By day 7 nobles should be released, dead or alive.
If certain classes already have a % chance of escaping, these chances would add to it  (ie, if infiltrators already have a 20% chance of escaping, then on the 4th day, they would have 40% chance of escaping and a 20% chance of dying). 
It would be neat if a class was somehow more resilient, and so was less likely to die (ie, cavaliers (or what ever) have 20% less chance of dying, so on day 5 they would have 30% chance of escape and 24% chance of death.  This would mean they could be stuck in the dungeon longer)
If the goal is to simulate dying from the conditions in the dungeon, any wounded noble could have a 20% greater chance of dying (depending on the wounds).
Like usual, I am probably making this more complex than desired. 
I would rather not have characters sit in prison for two weeks, worse still if they are only to be executed afterwards. 

One request I would like to have is battle reports being made available to prisoners.  Make the battle reports of the daimon hoards viewable by nobles in the dungeon.  You could expect that Overlord/Midnight of the * would brag about their wins, or the guards comment about battles.  I would not suggest this for human prisons, but Overlord is very confident that nothing humans do can prevent his victory and so should not care that prisoners receive reports.

[Marlboro]

I am fine with the torture.
Perhaps a drop in Honour/prestige after escaping so that the noble cannot command as large a unit (if the unit is executed I suggest retaining the honour/prestige, let them be remembered with what they had accomplished)
I am fine with the death as well, so long as it is not everyone.
I would somehow want to keep a time limit.  Perhaps the chance of escape can increase in the same way that the chance of death does.  As in:

Days in prison	%escape	%death
1	0	0
2	0	0
3	10	10
4	20	20
5	30	30
6	40	40
7	50	50

With these numbers a noble in prison would have a 50% chance of surviving.  I would like to have a higher chance of survival, these numbers are just an example.  By day 7 nobles should be released, dead or alive.
If certain classes already have a % chance of escaping, these chances would add to it  (ie, if infiltrators already have a 20% chance of escaping, then on the 4th day, they would have 40% chance of escaping and a 20% chance of dying). 
It would be neat if a class was somehow more resilient, and so was less likely to die (ie, cavaliers (or what ever) have 20% less chance of dying, so on day 5 they would have 30% chance of escape and 24% chance of death.  This would mean they could be stuck in the dungeon longer)
If the goal is to simulate dying from the conditions in the dungeon, any wounded noble could have a 20% greater chance of dying (depending on the wounds).
Like usual, I am probably making this more complex than desired. 
I would rather not have characters sit in prison for two weeks, worse still if they are only to be executed afterwards. 

One request I would like to have is battle reports being made available to prisoners.  Make the battle reports of the daimon hoards viewable by nobles in the dungeon.  You could expect that Overlord/Midnight of the * would brag about their wins, or the guards comment about battles.  I would not suggest this for human prisons, but Overlord is very confident that nothing humans do can prevent his victory and so should not care that prisoners receive reports.

That works out to a much higher than 50% chance of dying if you apply the percentages at each stage. Just got home from work so my brain's too fried to do the math but it's gotta be closer to 90% by your metric if you stay the full week.

I think Demon Jail is too easy though, for sure. When Benny got captured I was expecting the worst, considering what we've been doing to every Daimon we've captured.

Maybe give Heroes a reduced chance to successfully escape, but add in some kind of functionality for them to bust out other people too. A true hero wouldn't leave his friends (or even his enemies) behind in Demon Jail, while it would be easy for him to justify leaving his prisonmates in custody with noblemen since they'd be treated with dignity under most circumstances (sadistic judges notwithstanding).

[Eithad]

Chance of dying should always be lower than chance of escape in my opinion. For example, heroes have a chance to die in battle, but how often do you see a hero actually die. I think having a chance, even a small chance to die will make everyone think twice for characters they want to keep around.

I think it would be fun if after a few days, they get bored of you and just beat you up and toss you in a ditch somewhere to die leaving the character free of prison but wounded or seriously wounded.

[Charles]

That works out to a much higher than 50% chance of dying if you apply the percentages at each stage. Just got home from work so my brain's too fried to do the math but it's gotta be closer to 90% by your metric if you stay the full week.

Nope.  50%.
there is a chance of escaping on each day.  When you calculate the chance of escaping the next day, you have to remember that the % is of the % chance that you did not die or escape.  Making the statistic:
10% on first day
16% on second day
14% on third day
8% on fourth day
2% on fifth day
making a total of 50%
I agree that it should be a higher chance of escaping than dying.
 

[Marlboro]

Nope.  50%.
there is a chance of escaping on each day.  When you calculate the chance of escaping the next day, you have to remember that the % is of the % chance that you did not die or escape.  Making the statistic:
10% on first day
16% on second day
14% on third day
8% on fourth day
2% on fifth day
making a total of 50%
I agree that it should be a higher chance of escaping than dying.

A) That doesn't match the table you posted at all and B) that's not how percentages work, but either way if there is gonna be a formula for it I'm sure Tom doesn't need our help coming up with it, nor will he be sharing it with us.

[Daycryn]

I really like the idea of giving the option to escape to anyone in prison. Not just rogue or Netherworld prisons, but any prison. You don't have to be some sort of infiltrator ninja just to try to escape, after all.

I think bribery could still work in Netherworld prisons, if you assume that while Daimons might not care about money, the human guards they employ might. Unless the idea (and I admittedly am clueless on this issue) is that the Daimons themselves are always doing the guarding. Including the feeding and letter sending and stuff, which seems a bit off: "I'm a fiendish otherworldly demonic beast... here's your supper!" And I like the idea that not everyone who works for or supports the Netherworld is a Daimon. But again I have no idea what the intent or reality of the situation is, being a newcomer to the island myself.

Random death - kinda iffy. I like the idea myself but then thats just me and I think the entire game could use some more random death possibility situations. Including dying of disease, or not having enough food (as in prison, or if you're an adventurer; but then it wouldn't be random and you'd have to code some sort of food requirements. But then that seems like it'd be similar to how fatigue already works... I dunno.), getting thrown from a horse during tournaments, crossing by ferries or when emigrating between continents. Overall I don't see it going down too well with people who think their character doesn't deserve to die by RNG, but in my mind adding uncertainty might add drama and interest. Certainly being imprisoned by the Netherworld should be no joke though.

[Foundation]

This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent infiltrator afraid to duel
Five percent escape, fifty percent torture
And a hundred percent reason to remember Tom's name!

[Geronus]

I do not care for the idea of indefinite prison stays, as others have said. The time limit exists in order to keep the game fun. Spending a week in prison is already really crappy. Any longer and people are just going to get frustrated and/or angry.

I also do not care for the idea of a random chance of death in prison. You have an execute button; if it makes sense (the character has been too flippant or has actively angered Overlord), push the button. If it's someone who has been quiet and/or appropriately cowed, let it slide.

Personally I think that all of this might be a bit of an overreaction, Tom. I get that you are trying to foster a certain thematic mood here, but to some extent you have to let the players react to it in their own way. You cannot force them to RP desperation, despair and fear, and if you try you're going to generate *actual* despair and also outright anger in the player base. I had someone rage-pause their characters in Fronen today (as I believe you well know, based on your second message to the island), and there was OOC complaining from other people. I don't think they were the least bit justified, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a consequence of and reaction to your first message. If you push too hard, you'll only get more of that. I think things are plenty grim enough as it is; only the most blindly optimistic of players is going to be feeling good about our chances at present. No need to add insult to injury by detailing just how much worse we should be feeling. If people want to RP their characters as foolish bravados with big mouths, well, that's how some people genuinely react to hopeless situations. You can't expect every character to give in to desperation anymore than you can expect every person to meekly submit to oppression in real life; there will always be brave or foolish people who attempt to fight back.