A "no whining" policy ?

[Tom]

Not trying to annoy you Tom but according to your definition every complaint he is talking about is whining as he is talking about in-game complaining using the ooc message type, which is whining by your definition due to the fact it is not even in the forums, since you said it needs to be in the proper forum.

Depends on what you complain about and to whom. Not every complaint is about the game as a whole.

[James]

The OOC complaining (not that I've seen any for a while) is often unnecessary and, as others have already stated, detracts from the gameplay.

It's not much, but maybe another 'notice' type text (as when you select to send to all in realm) could be put in place so that, when sending OOC, a question is raised as in "are you sure this should be posted in game, or should it be in the forums?" and give a link to the forum.

Might stop some of it at least...

[JPierreD]

To me the main problem with the way you formulated the idea, Tom, is that "whining" is not only too abstract and subjective, as it is not necessarily insulting. While I agree that someone being insulting to the dev team, game or you should be warned and punished if he doesn't stop. Not only the players have the right of not being insulted. But the problem then is not "whining", it is "insulting".

If someone is frustrated enforcing punishments for him to vent it in another forum won't really solve much. Some will continue venting in the game, being reprimanded and getting even more frustrated, while others will simply shut up, and we will miss their point of view. The problem is excessive whining, but then the problem is not about whining in itself, but in excess of OoC disturbing the gaming experience of players.

The difference I am trying to draw is between eventual OoC complaints and repeated ones. The former are part of a healthy community, the later should be dealt with, for they are nor constructive nor in the right place.

You need to stop taking things so personally. You aren't a player in this board game. You're not even the host, really. You're more like the Parker Brothers or Bioware. The creator or publisher of the game, not a player. And as such people aren't going to and shouldn't have to complain directly to you all the time.

This is insulting. Really, rethink what you wrote.

It's not much, but maybe another 'notice' type text (as when you select to send to all in realm) could be put in place so that, when sending OOC, a question is raised as in "are you sure this should be posted in game, or should it be in the forums?" and give a link to the forum.

This would be a sensitive solution if the problem was deemed serious and spread. I personally have not come in contact with much whining.

[Indirik]

It is worse in some realms than others. There was a particularly long and very ill-informed whine in Sint this morning about the new policy of Overlord's. The player is convinced that Tom is frustrated that he is losing the invasion, and will be issuing death duel challenges with Overlord so he can kill large numbers of characters, and thus "win" the invasion against the players.

[Velax]

This is insulting. Really, rethink what you wrote.

No matter what you think, it's the truth, I'm afraid. If you're playing Monopoly and find a particular aspect of the game annoying, do you have a bit of a bitch to the friends you're playing with, or do you ring up Parker Brothers and complain to their CEO?

[Geronus]

I took a moment as the ruler of Fronen to write an OOC asking people to come here to post their complaints or to message Tom directly. This after one player rage-paused and several others made negative comments. It's been quiet since. IMO it's up to the rulers to referee what's going on in their own realms.

[JPierreD]

No matter what you think, it's the truth, I'm afraid. If you're playing Monopoly and find a particular aspect of the game annoying, do you have a bit of a bitch to the friends you're playing with, or do you ring up Parker Brothers and complain to their CEO?

First: Tom is a player, very much like you and me. That he cannot offer his viewpoint as a player, or play his own game, would be the ultimate... Sorry, I lack a proper word.
Second: He is also more of a host in his house, us being his guests, than a CEO from a far-away company. He is not charging us anything and he giving us ample means for exposing our opinions with feedback and whatnot. As we are doing right now. Try telling the Parker Brothers something remotely like this.
Third: In this invasion he is the Game Master. If you are unsatisfied with it you can ask for a refund. I am sure he will be willing to give you every cent he charged you for the time and effort he has been putting.
Four: Good luck finding GMs willing to be treated like employees for free.

[Lorgan]

No matter what you think, it's the truth, I'm afraid. If you're playing Monopoly and find a particular aspect of the game annoying, do you have a bit of a bitch to the friends you're playing with, or do you ring up Parker Brothers and complain to their CEO?

It's not the same. BM is not finished and will never be, it's constant beta actually, so consider yourself a beta-tester. If you don't agree with something in the game, you don't go and complain to your fellow testers, you take it up with the creators.

[Chenier]

When you play a board game, you usually aren't censored and can tell your friends what you think of the game. I don't see why it should be different here. I, for one, would not play any board game where OOG talk is unacceptable.

[JPierreD]

When you play a board game, you usually aren't censored and can tell your friends what you think of the game. I don't see why it should be different here. I, for one, would not play any board game where OOG talk is unacceptable.

If it's a RP game the point is to have IC be the predominant form of communication, immersion and all. A player constantly whining would certainly be quite annoying to the group, and one that stated that the fun of the GM is of absolutely no importance to him, well, would not really fit into the whole idea of friendly game.

[Chenier]

If it's a RP game the point is to have IC be the predominant form of communication, immersion and all. A player constantly whining would certainly be quite annoying to the group, and one that stated that the fun of the GM is of absolutely no importance to him, well, would not really fit into the whole idea of friendly game.

The proposed policy and Tom's comments that followed leaned more on the side of "ban all negative OOC comments, if not all OOC comments altogether", rather than "ban behavior that would be incompatible with the social contract".

By whining I mean OOC complaints spread to a wide audience. Complaints of the kind that the audience receiving it can't do anything about. Venting, frustration, etc.

Note that I'm not saying you can't say anything when you're frustrated or upset. What I'm saying is that it should go to the proper forum board, and stay out of the game.

He wants it all complaints out of the game and into the forums.

The d-list, as the forum, have always been an extra for players who want to involve themselves more. It has never been necessary to use them.

Now should be no different.

[James]

When you play a board game, you usually aren't censored and can tell your friends what you think of the game. I don't see why it should be different here. I, for one, would not play any board game where OOG talk is unacceptable.

When you play a board game, with the creator of that board game playing it with you, listening to the things that those playing it are saying and making changes to try to improve things based on what those other players are saying, then, one of the players experiences something they don't like and, rather than be constructive with feedback they just go on a whining session, which might then taint other player's views on the game without bothering to have fully understood everything first, you can understand why the creator would get annoyed.

You really need to stop talking about Tom as if he is not one of the players of BattleMaster. He didn't create a game with a few friends, sell it to other people, then put his fingers in his ears and start singing "I'm not listening".

Before you whine about anything, just make sure you've understood the facts first. Or, explain (politely and constructively) how you have understood what has been said and ask for clarification. If you then still have objections to what has happened then politely and constructively explain why...

It's not exactly hard really is it...

[Chenier]

When you play a board game, with the creator of that board game playing it with you, listening to the things that those playing it are saying and making changes to try to improve things based on what those other players are saying, then, one of the players experiences something they don't like and, rather than be constructive with feedback they just go on a whining session, which might then taint other player's views on the game without bothering to have fully understood everything first, you can understand why the creator would get annoyed.

You really need to stop talking about Tom as if he is not one of the players of BattleMaster. He didn't create a game with a few friends, sell it to other people, then put his fingers in his ears and start singing "I'm not listening".

Before you whine about anything, just make sure you've understood the facts first. Or, explain (politely and constructively) how you have understood what has been said and ask for clarification. If you then still have objections to what has happened then politely and constructively explain why...

It's not exactly hard really is it...

It's the definition of "whine" that I can't stand for.

Honestly, the best analogy I can think of is of Tom had created a trading card game (like Magic: The Gathering) and was hosting a large tournament in which he was playing. Compare the continents in the game to rooms of the building where the event is hosted, and realms as tables around which players are seated.

Now picture that some of the card combos are broken, or that some sets of cards are slightly stronger than others, or heck, that sometimes the air conditioning turns off. You know the host made this game, and that he's playing on some other table, and left a customer service desk to get complaints.

As these events unfold, sometimes the players talk to those around them and say "hey, you know, it's really hot in here" or "gee, this set of cards doesn't seem as useful as the other". You know, just generic comments on the state of the game and the tournament. What the new "whining" policy would be is the equivalent of "players are not allowed to talk with each other, all comments MUST be made to customer service or sanctions will be inflicted".

Honestly, I find that to be a really hostile playing environment. Not everyone wants to go to customer service. Let players talk with each other, and then if they agree that there's a problem, odds are one of them will go to customer service to express the problems they're having.

[Revan]

It's not much, but maybe another 'notice' type text (as when you select to send to all in realm) could be put in place so that, when sending OOC, a question is raised as in "are you sure this should be posted in game, or should it be in the forums?" and give a link to the forum.

I think this solution, or a variation thereof, is the right course. We'll never stop occasional meta-discussion or meta-whining in game, but we can make it so they have to think about it before hitting that send button.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I think this solution, or a variation thereof, is the right course. We'll never stop occasional meta-discussion or meta-whining in game, but we can make it so they have to think about it before hitting that send button.

Unfortunately, Tom is already against "Are you sure you want to do this?" buttons...