Author Topic: Treaty Interpretation Styles  (Read 11284 times)

Bedwyr

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #30: January 05, 2013, 08:31:35 AM »
Vellos,

You can preach the benefits of the treaty all you want, but I have seen more treaties simple, complex, and everywhere in between fall completely apart than I can count.  My point isn't that the treaty isn't important in context, it's that without that context the treaty would be worthless, and in context you could have the treaty specify all kinds of different things, and it would still matter.

Arguing that it only did so because nobles were willing to assign value to it is the same as arguing that you only understand my words because you assign meanings to them– it sounds smart until you realize is blindingly obvious and nearly meaningless.

Vellos, I know you have done enough negotiating to know the counterargument to this: The words you use do not always have the same meaning as the words I use.  "Republican style of governance" can mean a hell of a lot of things.  And if I define "possible" military aid differently than you do, then the retaliatory renegement clause could get invoked really easily.

Yes, where you have the will to actually work together, then you can work all these things out, and codifying things is helpful.  But if you have that will, what the treaty says isn't an issue, because you'll work things out anyway, and add to the codification.  Or, to summarize:

Unifying will allows codification to work.  Codification has little to no bearing on creating or supporting unifying will.
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Indirik

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #31: January 05, 2013, 01:39:51 PM »
I have to agree with Bedwyr on this one. The moot could have worked without the treaty. But it could never have worked without the guild. A wide open communication channel like the guild provides an easy way for the nobles in the realms to talk out their differences, and get to know the other realms. With the nobles knowing each other, and understanding each other, the possibiblity of war is greatly reduced. The guild was the really smart part of the whole thing that ties the group together. The treaty could have said "let's be friends, k?" and the moot could have worked. Without the guild, it would have crashed and burned.
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Chenier

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #32: January 05, 2013, 04:37:43 PM »
I have to agree with Bedwyr on this one. The moot could have worked without the treaty. But it could never have worked without the guild. A wide open communication channel like the guild provides an easy way for the nobles in the realms to talk out their differences, and get to know the other realms. With the nobles knowing each other, and understanding each other, the possibiblity of war is greatly reduced. The guild was the really smart part of the whole thing that ties the group together. The treaty could have said "let's be friends, k?" and the moot could have worked. Without the guild, it would have crashed and burned.

Perhaps...

But the rulers could also have used the ruler channels to keep in touch.

What's nice about the guild, though, are the elder ranks each realm has, which helps to maintain accountability of said rulers towards both their peers and the rest of the 'moot.
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Indirik

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #33: January 05, 2013, 06:36:05 PM »
Oh yes, the rulers can keep in touch via other means. But the guild, and all the communications it allows, builds a team, a sense of community, among the entire nobility of the involved realms. It creates an "us". That's critical.

Why do you think that communication is intentionally restricted to realms? Because it creates the realm as the team. The realm is "us". Everyone not in the realm is "them". The guild allows you to extend that "us" to include the other two realms. It's the same thing that has happened with the SA theocracies. We have created a very large "us". The ease and frequency of communications allows for a sense of identity. That's the beauty of the guild (or religion). Without that, the 'moot would be no more special than any other group of realms that happened to have mutual defense treaties.
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Vellos

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #34: January 05, 2013, 07:05:10 PM »
No, unification would not be possible without the treaty. You're speaking from a position of ignorance.

Yes, "Republican style of government" is vague and open to interpretation. But it's a logical fallacy to suggest that, because it is vague, it is therefore meaningless. There was a time when those words were the only real barrier between an offer membership to Asylon (and even possibly Aurvandil)– something the mere spirit of unity may have permitted, but the treaty did not.

The treaty, even aside from the guild, has substantively affected realms in ways a mere sense of unity has not. Moreover, there have been numerous times that one nation or another has had an interest in pulling out, and few strong voices were present to prevent that: but the treaty had a role in preventing those actions.

You're right that you can't just write words on a piece of paper and BAM they come true. I'm not arguing that. But the argument that treaties are merely descriptions of power relations, rather than at least somewhat formative of such relations, is wrong as long as at least one party in the treaty conceives of itself as somehow beholden to a law or standard.

And that's the key, really. However vague, the "Republican form of governance" is really a blanket condition covering a set of cultural practices– foremost among them a belief in rule of law. The 'Moot has more in common with the EU or HRE than with most normal treaties. Moot realms have functionally ceded a (rather small) share of their sovereignty to a supra-national entity: the Elders of the Véinsørmoot. They do not do this because of a sense of unity. They do this because the treaty says they should. They agree to the treaty because of a sense of unity, true– but the manner of that sensibility's expression could have extremely wide variation, and can be channeled by treaties, especially and emphatically in a setting where some or all parties operate under the assumption that treaties are a "real law."

Yes, you're right that a treaty can't function if nobody believes in it. Again– duh. That's indisputably true. And you're right that there's a subjective component. But you're dead wrong when you argue that treaties, as distinct from the motivating spirit behind such treaties, are uninfluential.

Indeed, you've all played as rulers: you've all seen the obscene lengths to which most realms will go to argue that they aren't violating a treaty, or are acting honorably, etc, etc. That is compelling proof of my argument. And realms which fail to provide such legal or quasi-legal justification for their actions are usually either hegemonic states who can bully everyone else into submission (rare but does happen), or else become pariah states (Aurvandil).
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Bedwyr

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #35: January 05, 2013, 07:31:01 PM »
You're right that you can't just write words on a piece of paper and BAM they come true. I'm not arguing that.

Good, because that's all I'm arguing.  I explicitly stated in my last post that yes, within the context of the 'Moot, the treaty was important.  Once you have a spirit of unity working, the codification takes on a life of its own.  The Constitution of the United States is (rightly) regarded as the single most important document in the political history of the US, and it has certainly shaped how the US has worked, but there's nothing in the Constitution itself that has any magical powers that made it important.  The number of failed national constitutions in the world, many of them incredibly similar to the US Constitution, shows that quite easily.  It was the vast effort to actually get everyone, as Rob said, to think of "us" as being a larger group.  Until everyone in a treaty is "us" then the treaty is meaningless.  Once they are us, then of course the treaty matters, but at that point the treaty could be considerably different in text and still be highly influential.

Indeed, you've all played as rulers: you've all seen the obscene lengths to which most realms will go to argue that they aren't violating a treaty, or are acting honorably, etc, etc. That is compelling proof of my argument. And realms which fail to provide such legal or quasi-legal justification for their actions are usually either hegemonic states who can bully everyone else into submission (rare but does happen), or else become pariah states (Aurvandil).

But everyone can.  The only people who don't choose to not bother as a statement.  Everyone who wishes can and will make some claim that theoretically absolves them of any guilt.  Because it doesn't matter if we lie to them.

And, of course, it's not a dichotomy.  There are varying levels of "us"ness.  At various points the Far East, for instance, made a collective decision that "we" were all going to be bound by certain rules of honorable conduct.  Viracocha tortured everyone he got his hands on, and even though he worked out some deal with the leaders of Arcachon, he faced threats and was eventually killed by one of his new realm-mates in a duel.  Selene's decision to hold the people of a city hostage on threat of mass murder if a war was not halted turned Jenred from a friend who was quietly preparing an army to go relieve NeoSartania if possible to demanding she step down immediately on pain of Arcaean troops assisting in the utter destruction of NeoSartania (not that they were needed, but that's beside the point).

So: Treaties certainly matter once you have reached a certain level of "us"ness.  But before you get there, the treaty can, and usually is, ignored the moment the benefits of doing so outweigh the consequences.
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Vellos

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #36: January 06, 2013, 02:20:14 AM »
So: Treaties certainly matter once you have reached a certain level of "us"ness.  But before you get there, the treaty can, and usually is, ignored the moment the benefits of doing so outweigh the consequences.

Fair enough.

I would simply add that treaties, depending on their exact content, can be important in creating the sense of us-ness from the beginning. Not the sole or unilateral agents, but they're not useless for generating such feeling.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Vellos

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #37: January 06, 2013, 02:23:42 AM »
For a fantastic book on the (dis)functionality of international law, and the kind of dynamics I'm trying to articulate, I recommend Joel Woestra's "International Law and the Use of Armed Force." It's dense but very good, and has very strong applications to Battlemaster.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Hroppa

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #38: January 06, 2013, 04:36:44 AM »
I can pretend BM is revision for my finals in International Relations? Awesome.

Vellos

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Re: Treaty Interpretation Styles
« Reply #39: January 06, 2013, 05:24:38 PM »
I can pretend BM is revision for my finals in International Relations? Awesome.

Absolutely.

I regularly toss in quotes from major IR thinkers– and model treaties off of famous cases in international affairs. It's a great study tactic.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner