Win or Damage ?

[Tom]

We've now had the forum for a while, after I had consistently refused to open one for many years.

I think it's time to assess the damage - or the profit. What does it give us that we didn't have before? What does it take away? There are definitely points on both sides, so try to find that balance even if you have a strong opinion. I'll not take postings only blasting the forum or only loving it very seriously.


For my part, the forum seems to be more widely accepted than the mailing list, bringing more people to it.
But it also seems to be a lot more hostile than the list, and the community in general seems a lot less friendly on the forum.
And it is a major timesink. A really, really big one.

[Zakilevo]

And trolls...

One thing good about it is more people are pouring their ideas but that is also a downside of the forum. People are easily distracted and go off track rather quickly.

And again, trolls...

[Anaris]

I fear that you may be tempted to ignore my post, because I am about to tell you that I see the forum as having pretty much all the good things we had in the D-list, with some other good things and without some bad things. However, I hope you will be willing to hear me out, because I think a lot of your problem with the forum may be a combination of prejudice and the way you're trying to interact with it.

The forum is not more hostile overall than the discussion list. I think you may be letting some rose-colored glasses get to you on that. The discussion list was occasionally aggressively hostile, and I think it was much less newbie-friendly, especially with the confusion over the modded vs unmodded lists.

Moreover, the forum can be moderated in ways that the discussion list never could. Yes, with the moderated list, we could ensure that excessively flame-y posts never got through. However, a) that was only the moderated list, b) it delayed everything, and c) it required the mods to look at every post and pass through only those worthwhile.

Furthermore, it's trivial to ignore threads you don't want to read on the forum. That was not true with the discussion list, where everything was dumped in the same bucket.

Personally, I do prefer getting everything in my email, rather than having to go out and deliberately look for new threads on the forum, and I see that as basically the only thing the forum takes away—at least, initially. However, I have it set up to send me notifications of all new threads, and all new posts on threads I'm paying attention to. Thus, all the posts that I care about come to me, and I only need to visit the forum when I want to reply. I essentially get the best of both worlds. I can only assume that this is part of why you find it a greater time sink—having to go to the forum and look for new threads. If that's the case, then I strongly urge you to make extensive use of the [Notify] buttons on sub-forums and threads, and send the notifications to a mailbox just like the D-list used to.

Overall, I am firmly convinced that the forum is the better choice, and I really wish you would expand on the problems you see with it, rather than just saying that it's a "major timesink" or that the community seems less friendly.

[Anaris]

One thing good about it is more people are pouring their ideas but that is also a downside of the forum. People are easily distracted and go off track rather quickly.

But topics on the forum are separated from each other (and if one thread strays from its topic, it can be split), so it's easy to only read the topics that interest you.

And again, trolls...

With proper moderation, these can be kept in check without too much trouble.

[Kellaine]

We've now had the forum for a while, after I had consistently refused to open one for many years.

I think it's time to assess the damage - or the profit. What does it give us that we didn't have before? What does it take away? There are definitely points on both sides, so try to find that balance even if you have a strong opinion. I'll not take postings only blasting the forum or only loving it very seriously.


For my part, the forum seems to be more widely accepted than the mailing list, bringing more people to it.
But it also seems to be a lot more hostile than the list, and the community in general seems a lot less friendly on the forum.
And it is a major timesink. A really, really big one.

What does it give us that we didn't have before? 

1. It gives us an out let for our frustrations that is OOC
2. Allows us to better see the big picture.
3. provides a lot of entertainment
4. I enjoy it more than the mailing lists as I get the feedback right away.

What does it take away?

1. not sure it takes anything away so to speak, but it does allow for flaming more.
2. It allows people to take things said ooc here into the game and use them as IC.. which is a bad thing


Personally I like the forum as it provides me with a lot of entertainment as I am online about 18 hours a day on average.  I am as guilty of the flaming as anyone else and I am trying not to do that anymore.  But I am now more informed about the happenings in BM than I used to be.  And my understanding of in game politics has gone up as well.. overall I think it has enhanced the game.. At least it has for me.

[Anaris]

4. I enjoy it more than the mailing lists as I get the feedback right away.

The only reasons feedback would have been more delayed on the D-list is if one was on the moderated list or receiving digests, or because the forum is more active in general.

1. not sure it takes anything away so to speak, but it does allow for flaming more.
2. It allows people to take things said ooc here into the game and use them as IC.. which is a bad thing

Please elaborate on how these things were impossible or harder on the D-list than they are on the forum?

[LilWolf]

+ It certainly reaches more of the players.
+ Easier to just focus on what you're interested in.
+ You get threads that just would not have stood a chance on the mailing lists(other games etc.).

- To some extent it seems to have brought out more people who just argue for the sake of arguing. We had those on the mailing-list too, but they seem to do more of it on the forum.
- Moderation is not as good as it was with the moderated mailing-list. That's probably one of the reasons why people who like to argue seem to get more of it done.

All in all most of the problems I see are due to lax moderation and no clear guidelines for it.

[Anaris]

All in all most of the problems I see are due to lax moderation and no clear guidelines for it.

I agree. I believe that once we can get this in place properly, we will be able to keep the pointless arguing to a minimum.

(And I'm at least as guilty of this as anyone here, I think )

[Kellaine]

Please elaborate on how these things were impossible or harder on the D-list than they are on the forum?

first of all, more people read the forum than read the D-list.  I for one prefer the forum.  I can focus on the subjects that I am interested in and ignore the ones that do not interest me.

but I digress, as more people read the forums the ooc information is more prominent and easier for people to focus on.

I do my best to separate what I know from what my character knows, but some do not..

other than that I am not sure what you are asking for.

[Telrunya]

It certainly reaches more players, letting more participate, and greatly helps in communication regarding development of the game (Tom/Devs <-> players, which is handled very well in this game).

On the other hand, I read the many topics about ingame wars/events with mixed feelings. I kinda liked the no-forum in that regard, as it kept me, at least, focused in-game, and left more events and such to be explained and discussed ingame instead of jumping on the forums for an OOC explanation. There have been several topics that are very complain-heavy, but I figure those appear on the D-List too (Though then it reaches less people).

Overall, I'd prefer no forums, but I'm not vehemently against them either. Though it'd be nice to be able to keep up communication regarding development and new features.