Religion is missing something?

[Aldwoni]

Are Religions and Realms separated enough?
Many realms only allow one of a few religions and most religions are based in a few realms.

Why should nobles join one religion and not the other?
Is there an reason to join an religion in the first place?

priests have many option in the messaging system to talk within their own realm but not very much outside it.

I have the feeling religions miss something but I'm not sure what.

[De-Legro]

Priest can talk to anyone of their faith, and likewise have all the other option for talking to nobles outside their realm, IE if they travel to another realm they can talk to nobles in whatever region they are in. The fact that most realms only allow one religion is not due to something religion lack, but the fact that too many realms want to ensure they can't fall prey to something like a RTO, so they create a religion to defend their realm against other religions.

Other then that, it takes ALOT of work to establish a religion in even 1 realm. It takes a whole heap of work and several more dedicated nobles to spread it further.

[Indirik]

If you don't think they are separated enough, then what additional steps would you take to separate them?

[Aldwoni]

If you don't think they are separated enough, then what additional steps would you take to separate them?

If I had good suggestions I had already made a feature request.

Currently Priests are part of a realm maybe they can become a part of their religion instead.
or what if RTO will not switch a region to the new realm but only makes the priest the lord. or gives the priest the option to appoint a follower as lord instead of himself.
What if temples of a certain size become estates for priests which instead of production or authority improves morale?
Or that elder priest can give senior non-priest members an army of their religion which knights of multiple realms can join.

[vonGenf]

or what if RTO will not switch a region to the new realm but only makes the priest the lord.

I adore this idea.

[Indirik]

So the priest moves to the realm that owns the region? Sounds like an Insta-Ban^TM to me.

Or do you mean that the priest stays in his realm, but becomes lord of a region that owes allegiance to another realm? Aside from being a logical impossibility, it's also a coding nightmare. And won't happen.

[vonGenf]

No, I meant that as you become Lord of the region, the region stays in the same realm, and you are the one who switches realm.

If the region is a border region of your own realm, you can immediately switch back if that's what you want to do.

But outside of the context of single-realm religion, it's not immediate that it would result in an insta-ban. After all, it means that you do swear allegiance to your new ruler. You are, very much, switching realm. And, in an ideal world, if banned you can take your region with you... that may convince some realms they are better working with you.

If you RTO a region in the middle of enemy territory, sure, you will probably be insta-banned. You shouldn't have RTOed the region in the first place.

[De-Legro]

You just usurped the rightful lord of the region, appointed or elected by the realm you just joined. I would think that unless the realm had grown to dislike the lord, a instant ban is certainly on the cards.

[Foundation]

What if religion was *completely* separated from realms, as in priests become separate from their realm in all practical ways except communication?   

[De-Legro]

Better role out the new estates before that happens. Losing priest estates would be rough on a lot of realms. Really if we are going to separate them COMPLETELY do so. Including communications. Come up with a whole new communication system for priest that allows them to talk to the nobles of whatever realm that happen to be "visiting"

[Aldwoni]

priests could still communicate with all members of the religion.
An option would be that a priest can communicate with nobles who are near a temple of the faith.
or religions could become a sort realm which owns each region which has a temple in it.

[Indirik]

Isn't this all just going a bit overboard? IMHO, this whole separation of church and state thing is a red herring.

Too much separation is why you end up in situations like we had on EC, where you have realms who's leaders/dukes were members/elders of religions who considered the religions of the realms federated ally, a theocracy, as evil. Hello? You're federated with Evil and you're cool with that? Seems to me that's because religions and state are separated just a wee bit too much.

Rather than have separation of church and state, I think the problem we have is that most religions are not political enough. Personally I think that's a major reason why most religions fail at getting player involvement. They don't get involved in the stuff that matters to the players: Politics and War. Religions just want to preach to the peasants, and be content monks who moan about "Why can't we all just get along?". Boring. Thats something that no one will get involved in.

Compare this:

"Hey, want to be a priest of Keplerism?"

"What do you do?"

"Well, all of our priests have assigned preaching circuits. They travel the regions preaching to the peasants to keep our follower percentage at >90%. Then if the region morale goes too low, we calm the population to bring it back up. But then that loses us followers so we have to preach some more. Then we go the next region and do it all again."

"Yeah.... No."

To this:

"Hey, want to be a priest of Keplerism?"

"What do you do?"

"Our goal is to dominate the entire continent, spreading our faith to the farthest shores by the book or by the sword. We hunt down unbelievers and persecute them. We subjugate and destroy the false faiths, cast down their idols, and burn their temples."

"Cool! Where do I sign up?"

Forget that separation of church and state stuff. I want more religions involved in more stuff. I want official state religions. I want realms to use their militarily power to export their faith to other realms. I want religions to be telling realms what to do.

The failing of religion has nothing to do with separation. You can have your religion and your realm as separate as you want. But if your religion doesn't get involved in politics it will remain on the fringe without a lot of influence, gold, or noble support. That doesn't mean you have to be a tool of the state. The key is to work out how to make the state *your* tool. Find a way to do that, and you will have one heck of a fun religion.

[Peri]

Forget that separation of church and state stuff. I want more religions involved in more stuff. I want official state religions. I want realms to use their militarily power to export their faith to other realms. I want religions to be telling realms what to do.

That's really something I support very much. In some thread I forgot someone was pointing out that of all religions of bm probably SA is one of the least complex theologically-wise, but the fact that stands, from what I could see, is that the religions that are mostly influencial, large and fun are CoI on EC and SA on Dwi. And they have in common the fact that they really tell people what to do, and not stay silent in a corner. That's largely because they have theocracies, but I believe that a bit more seriousness on the religion side even in non-theocratic realms would definitely benefit the game.

[Fleugs]

Why link a priest, or even religion, so hard to a realm? If by anything, the medieval system did not work through a centralized state. The concepts of realms as we have it in Battlemaster, be it intended or not, is not at all accurate.

Link it to the lord. Recreate the feudal system. Get rid of "states", it's completely un-medieval. If the priest RTOs a region, the region should join the duchy of his lord. Next to that, it is not the religion that should be subjected to a state, but the other way around.

To add to Peri's post: yes, I am the ruler of Ibladesh but my character (and that's how I play him too) is first of all the High Priest of the Church. The State is completely subjected to the religion and is but a mere tool of the Church. We have strict rules about religion in Ibladesh. Not a good or interested follower? No promotions in the mundane world whatsoever for you! That, and we are on our epic quest to conquer and possibly convert all of EC! 

[Galvez]

I want religions to be telling realms what to do.

While I was reading your post, I was thinking the exact same thing.

And I must praise Fleugs for appointing priests and other pious nobles to important positions. Yet, I still believe the Church is not powerful enough. A Duke will always have more influence than a priest. And an elder of the church will have little to say about Ibladesh if he is a noble of DoA for example. However, I am not (yet) part of the elder council, and wouldn't know what is and what isn't being discussed there.