Luria

[Chenier]

3. Even if you did have claim under Shadovar, no heir of Shadovar-contra-D'Hara exists. Find me a descendant of Shadovar's rulers who can press the claim, a direct descendant with some kind of real claim. Simply because you were bros with a realm doesn't mean you are the lagl inheritor of their rights and liabilities.

D'Hara does have family of an ex-Shadovar ruler. And he's not about to swear fealty to the Lurias any time soon. D'Hara is the sole successor to everything that once was and that would have been Shadovarian.

Luria Nova has in fact done several of those things. The Dragon King has been denounced, and Luria has declared its own monarch. Furthermore, why would anyone declare Paisly D'hara's de jure capital? Luria would recognize it as Port Nebel. Furthermore, Alanna Anaris has just as much, if not more claim on D'haran lands than the majority of the Nobility of D'hara. She conquered it, the Monarch of Shadovar passed without issue, and therefore, the conquering monarch would have claim by rights of inheritance. Luria may not exercise de facto control, but in the BM universe where the international law you cite has no relevance because it does not exist, it still exercises a de jure claim through right of conquest. Furthermore, if you look at the diplomatic dealings, that doesn't necessarily mean a nation gives up all claim on the lands the entity it is dealing with holds. North Korea and South Korea hold to an armistice, and both will tell you that the other half of Korea is rightfully theirs and both are to a degree, correct in this.

A lurian shadow government is an interesting idea...

Conquering monarchs? The son of a former dictator of Shadovar is D'Haran. He has a far greater claim than Alanna Anaris does.

Of course it doesn't.  :-*

D'Haran internal politics are remarkably stable, while D'Haran external politics are not geared towards a colonialist agenda. Lurian internal politics are just a series of rebellions, secessions, unions, and usurpations, while their external politics, whenever they can manage one, is to bully and try to vassalize their neighbors.

And there has never been a single D'Haran secession, nor a single D'Haran lord switching to another realm, thus far. Starvation has shrunk our realm on multiple occasions, but we always sprung back up, and stuck together. The rebellions were few and long back. We have a history of being religiously open, not having any native religion in quite a while but rather a history of a religious people following foreign faiths, while the Lurias have a relatively old native faith and have not started adopting SA in a significant level until relatively recently. D'Hara lived as a trader's realm, open on the world, always making dealings with as many realms as possible, whereas the Lurias tend to be isolationist, and rarely bother with foreign realms save for the rare moments they are stable enough to bully their neighbors.

D'Hara and the Lurias may share similarities, but their cultures are definately distinct.

[Perth]

Soo.... is Luria going to attack D'Hara or what? Is this all just arguing for the sake of arguing?

[Glaumring the Fox]

Soo.... is Luria going to attack D'Hara or what? Is this all just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Forummaster!

[Solari]

Words

The best thing about comparing D'Hara to Luria is that one can always count on a vehement rebuttal from Chénier. ::)

[Solari]

Soo.... is Luria going to attack D'Hara or what? Is this all just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Going solely on what's been recently revealed IC in LN, Fissoa (or Skyndarbau, rather) seems pretty intent on inviting war upon itself. Nobody in Luria really likes D'Hara, but there's also no active plan for warring them. If D'Hara wants to get involved, okay, but they really shouldn't assume that this is your grandfather's Luria. It's under new management, and employees have been trained how to walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Chenier]

The duel should have taken place in D'Hara...

[Dishman]

Oh, oh....duel in Balance's Retreat. I'd love to turn that region into THUNDERDOME!

[Penchant]

Btw, Luria's claim is a joke, because its basis is well practically nothing. Always on IRC ftw (I am not actually on though just logged in.)

<@Delvin_at_Work> Basically, the guy said he wanted to go found a realm, and that he would make it a part of the Lurian Empire, and she said, "OK, but we can't really help you"

[Dante Silverfire]

Do you mean Pian en luries conquered the tomb islands? That is true: but Pian en Luries does not exist and, again, my understanding is that nobody has claimed the title of Monarch of Pian en Luries for some time. If you want to claim "right of conquest" grants de jure claim (it doesn't: Medieval scholars repudiated right of conquest and hated the idea), then D'Hara has doubly strong claims, because they've conquered all of their lands multiple times from rogues and secessionists.

Okay, this is very simple:

1. Alanna Anaris IS the declared Monarch of Pian en Luries. She not only was originally Monarch of Pian en Luries, but has been granted that claim and title by the current Queen of the Lurian Empire (Alice Arundel). However, Queen Alice granted the Monarchy of Pian en Luries to Alanna not as a Kingdom level title, but as a duchy level title, that owes fealty to Alice's Lurian Empire.

2. Your understanding is based upon NOT being in Luria. Each of Luria's changes in government have had very clear and defining moments, each one where the winning party claimed ownership and claim to all of the previous Lurian leadership.

3. D'Hara is seen as an usurper of Lurian authority and claim to the lands BECAUSE they were a secessionist realm against a legitimate member of the Lurian Empire.

4. As Anaris stated elsewhere, the Lurian Empire (even when it was only a single realm) has existed as an entity since around the time of Shadovar. This hasn't changed. Although the empire's have succeeded into different forms over the years, there is still a single Lurian Empire which holds the claims of Luria.

Finally, does D'Hara certainly have claim of current control of the lands? Sure, but that doesn't make them sole rightful owners to the land. Let me use your own argument against you: Does Israel's control of Jerusalem completely negate all previous ownership of said lands? Does 1940's Germany's control of France make them sole rightful owners of France because they controlled it once? NO. Luria has the prior claim to that of D'Hara and as D'Hara's very foundation occurred through the destruction of a Lurian government, they can easily be seen as nobles in rebellion illegally controlling lands they have no rights to.

[Dishman]

3. D'Hara is seen as an usurper of Lurian authority and claim to the lands BECAUSE they were a secessionist realm against a legitimate member of the Lurian Empire.

Luria has the prior claim to that of D'Hara and as D'Hara's very foundation occurred through the destruction of a Lurian government, they can easily be seen as nobles in rebellion illegally controlling lands they have no rights to.

4. Luria Nova has engaged in treaties with D'Hara while D'hara held Qubel Lighthouse and/or Port Raviel as its capital city. Lurian realms have in fact engaged in numerous instances of direct diplomacy and agreement and treaty with D'Hara, and, under terms of estoppel, cannot cease this service once rendered. Once you sign away Qubel and Raviel by signing establishing treaties with the owners of Qubel and Raviel, you recognize the transfer.

Might have been true at one point, but I agree with Vellos. If you conduct negotiations and recognize them as a sovereign entity, then you've legitimized them. Doesn't mean you can't ignore all that diplomacy treating them as a real and rightful realm, and beat the war drum with "they be rebels". Just, OOC you have to admit that Luria dealt with them not as rebels but as a true and proper realm.

[Dante Silverfire]

Might have been true at one point, but I agree with Vellos. If you conduct negotiations and recognize them as a sovereign entity, then you've legitimized them. Doesn't mean you can't ignore all that diplomacy treating them as a real and rightful realm, and beat the war drum with "they be rebels". Just, OOC you have to admit that Luria dealt with them not as rebels but as a true and proper realm.

You can make treaties with a realm that you believe is made up of rebels illegally occupying lands that are rightfully yours. Just because they are recognized as a sovereign realm doesn't mean that you recognize everything they do or all the lands that they claim.

D'Hara holds lands which Luria lays no claim to.

[Anaris]

Yeah; this is a very different situation from Riombara vs Irombrozia back in the day. Delvin would never even use the name "Irombrozia," because he didn't recognize the realm as legitimate at all.

Alanna would like to see D'Hara destroyed—but the claim is on the lands, not the realm. If D'Hara was pushed off the islands entirely, the land claim would be, at best, far more tenuous. (And that's if you actually believe that it exists in the first place!)

[Feylonis]

Okay, so, if claims are determined by who conquers and wins, D'Hara trumps Luria by definition -- D'Hara conquered and won over Shadowvar, after all.

Thank you, Lurian lawyers.

[Stabbity]

Okay, so, if claims are determined by who conquers and wins, D'Hara trumps Luria by definition -- D'Hara conquered and won over Shadowvar, after all.

Thank you, Lurian lawyers.

Flawed logic is flawed. Multiple entities can have a claim on the same location, and just because a new claim is laid, doesn't mean the old claim has gone away. The only way a claim can go away is if every person holding said claim dies without issue, or the individuals holding the claims willfully cede their claims.

[dustole]

Ugh, enough Forumaster.  Why don't you take this war IG... Whoever wins is right.