Author Topic: Luria  (Read 359778 times)

JeVondair

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1155: April 18, 2013, 04:06:40 PM »
Yup
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Vellos

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1156: April 18, 2013, 07:03:21 PM »
Okay, problem with this claims logic:

1. Shadovar was founded by Pian en Luries, yes, and D'Hara secede from Shadovar. But the issue here is that backing a colony does not in any sense confer claim. Madina never had claim to Golden Farrow. Aurvandil has no claim to Falkirk. That's the whole point of a COLONY, it's a SEPARATE legal entity.

2. Furthermore, supra-national entities like the Lurian Empire did not exist until recently: as such, they cannot have received claims that originated on a trans-national basis prior to their existence. You cannot create an entity then assert that you magically got claims from decades earlier. Well, you can: but it's smoke and mirrors completely without substance.

3. Even if you did have claim under Shadovar, no heir of Shadovar-contra-D'Hara exists. Find me a descendant of Shadovar's rulers who can press the claim, a direct descendant with some kind of real claim. Simply because you were bros with a realm doesn't mean you are the lagl inheritor of their rights and liabilities.

4. Luria Nova has engaged in treaties with D'Hara while D'hara held Qubel Lighthouse and/or Port Raviel as its capital city. Ask the Palestinian Authority what happens to your legal standing when you sign agreements with another country while they hold your land: they gain legal sovereigntyu (hence why formal, non-shuttle agreements between the PLA and Israel are rare: Israel doesn't want to grant them de facto statehood, and PLA doesn't want to grant de jure control of Jerusalem). Lurian realms have in fact engaged in numerous instances of direct diplomacy and agreement and treaty with D'Hara, and, under terms of estoppel, cannot cease this service once rendered. Once you sign away Qubel and Raviel by signing establishing treaties with the owners of Qubel and Raviel, you recognize the transfer. Admittedly the case is not as solid as if you had directly signed them away, and Luria's frequent protestations against D'Hara serve as notice of dispute in legal terms, but there's another issue....

5. Effective sovereignty can create de jure sovereignty under international law. See the Pedra Brance case for details (specifically relating to island claims, as it happens). This idea is in fact an extension of an earlier medieval concept that if you perform the actions of a soveriegn and nobody else performs the actions of a sovereign for a long time, then you are in fact a sovereign.

6. Legally, it is not clear that Luria Nova has inherited Pian en Luries' claims. The persons, yes, but Lurian monarchy, you have asserted, is an institutional, not personal, title. As such, Alanna has no claim to Shadovar due to being monarch: that was a de jure claim of the Pianian monarchy, not Alanna. Unless she retains the title Queen of Pian en Luries, she can't make that claim. If the Pianian monarchy is institutional, the demise of Pian en Luries would suggest that monarchy is gone, and has been replaced by Novan monarchy. You may assert that you are continuing Pianian monarchy, but the circumstances of succession to Pian en Luries do not lend credibility to this (unlike Solaria, where the Novan monarchy is the right pressor of claims given their representation of Malus Solari, who holds those claims personally rather than institutionally).

For these reasons, Luria Nova has no "claim" in any legal sense, or, at the very most, an extraordinarily weak claim.

So why does D'Hara have claim?

1. Effective sovereignty as noted above. D'hara has controlled the islands for way long enough.

2. Recognition by all sovereign states. No state in Dwilight has failed to recognize D'Hara as sovereign of the isles. Even Luria Nova has done that.

3. Secession by Katayanna Ogren was not protested by Luria Nova at the time, I believe, and certainly did not get material opposition. Lack of complaint is consent in international law, ESPECIALLY regarding land claims (see Senkoku/Diaoyu island dispute for another example of how this plays out).

4. Even if Pian en Luries had some macro-claim to the islands from colonization, Lurian practice is such that secession is legitimately claim-conferring providing the seceder is ballsy and Very Lurian. Katayanna Ogren was indisputably Lurian and very ballsy. This secession, by virtue of being basically the normal practice of politics within Lurian cultures, cannot be regarded as splitting a claim. Rather, it was an "in-region" dispute between Lurian contender. The winner was a Lurian, Katayanna Ogren. She established a monarchy which has managed a clear succession to the present day. Under Lurian law, under the Lurian empire, even if Luria DOES HAVE CLAIM, there IS a legitimate "Lurian monarch" of the Tomb Islands. His name is Machiavel Chénier. At no point has Luria Nova ever made any argument that the established office of the Dragon King is illegitimate, and Luria Nova has never renounced Katayanna Ogren's Lurian-ness. By now, again under estoppel and the presence of ongoing formal dispute, such renunciation would be worthless.

----

Additional things Luria Nova could do (or could have done) to legally undermine D'hara's claim, aside from their currently extant practices of protest and denial of formal recognition:
1. Denounce the office of the Dragon King
2. Appoint a different person Dragon King
3. Appoint shadow-dukes and shadow-lords
4. Send priests, courtiers, and traders to carry out surveys, censuses, and administrative tasks
5. Refuse to ever negotiate directly with D'Hara
6. Welcome D'Hara into the Lurian Empire, then demand rights of revocation
7. Include in negotiations that Luria Nova will only sign peace treaties in the Capital of D'Hara, defined as Paisly, no matter D'Hara's claims to the contrary

INTERNATIONAL LAWYER'D.

PS- If it seems like I've spent to much time thinking about this, it's because my graduation thesis was about island claim law and the status of several ongoing land claim disputes.
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Vellos

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1157: April 18, 2013, 07:07:33 PM »
Sidenote: I think a Lurian shadow-government of the Tomb Islands would be fantastic.
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Stabbity

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1158: April 18, 2013, 07:21:31 PM »
Luria Nova has in fact done several of those things. The Dragon King has been denounced, and Luria has declared its own monarch. Furthermore, why would anyone declare Paisly D'hara's de jure capital? Luria would recognize it as Port Nebel. Furthermore, Alanna Anaris has just as much, if not more claim on D'haran lands than the majority of the Nobility of D'hara. She conquered it, the Monarch of Shadovar passed without issue, and therefore, the conquering monarch would have claim by rights of inheritance. Luria may not exercise de facto control, but in the BM universe where the international law you cite has no relevance because it does not exist, it still exercises a de jure claim through right of conquest. Furthermore, if you look at the diplomatic dealings, that doesn't necessarily mean a nation gives up all claim on the lands the entity it is dealing with holds. North Korea and South Korea hold to an armistice, and both will tell you that the other half of Korea is rightfully theirs and both are to a degree, correct in this.

A lurian shadow government is an interesting idea...
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Anaris

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1159: April 18, 2013, 07:21:52 PM »
I don't believe that Luria Nova has asserted that it has a direct claim on the lands—merely that Luria does.

A Lurian realm held it before, and was usurped illegally by Lurian rebels. Thus, D'Hara's very existence is an affront to Luria, and it is illegally occupying lands that were Luria's since long ago.
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Vellos

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1160: April 18, 2013, 08:03:28 PM »
Luria Nova has in fact done several of those things. The Dragon King has been denounced

When?

, and Luria has declared its own monarch.
Who?

 
Furthermore, why would anyone declare Paisly D'hara's de jure capital? Luria would recognize it as Port Nebel.

I thought Nebel was one of the contested claims?

Furthermore, Alanna Anaris has just as much, if not more claim on D'haran lands than the majority of the Nobility of D'hara. She conquered it, the Monarch of Shadovar passed without issue, and therefore, the conquering monarch would have claim by rights of inheritance.

Your "therefore" does not follow. In what world of absurd law does a person dying confer claims, not on a descending heir (such as a son, designee, or local claimant) but back up the hierarchy? Only in very, very modern non-feudal systems where we are post-absolutism. No, claims never, ever, ever confer UP the hierarchy UNLESS no other claimants exist. And even then, generally without the lands associated with the claims, they evaporated in a generation or two.

Luria may not exercise de facto control, but in the BM universe where the international law you cite has no relevance because it does not exist, it still exercises a de jure claim through right of conquest.

Luria does not exist. Do you mean Luria Nova conquered D'Hara? That is false. Do you mean Pian en luries conquered the tomb islands? That is true: but Pian en Luries does not exist and, again, my understanding is that nobody has claimed the title of Monarch of Pian en Luries for some time. If you want to claim "right of conquest" grants de jure claim (it doesn't: Medieval scholars repudiated right of conquest and hated the idea), then D'Hara has doubly strong claims, because they've conquered all of their lands multiple times from rogues and secessionists.

Furthermore, if you look at the diplomatic dealings, that doesn't necessarily mean a nation gives up all claim on the lands the entity it is dealing with holds. North Korea and South Korea hold to an armistice, and both will tell you that the other half of Korea is rightfully theirs and both are to a degree, correct in this.

Armistice. ARMISTICE. Ever occur to you why it's an ARMISTICE? D'hara doesn't have armistices. Ya'll done gone and fought alongside them. You've had a whole history of various formal wars, treaties, alliances, and peaces since D'Hara's creation.

You are 100% right that I'm talking about RL ideas here. If you want to argue that BM claimancy and legal ideas are totally different from RL ones, that's fine. But insofar as we're talking about feudal/medieval ideas, insofar as we're talking about these terms as they mean anywhere in the RL world, I'm right: Luria Nova's claim is tenuous at best, most likely non-existent.

I don't believe that Luria Nova has asserted that it has a direct claim on the lands—merely that Luria does.

A Lurian realm held it before, and was usurped illegally by Lurian rebels. Thus, D'Hara's very existence is an affront to Luria, and it is illegally occupying lands that were Luria's since long ago.

D'Hara is a Lurian realm. The idea of an "illegal" Lurian rebel is giggle-worthy, methinks. No claimant of the other party exists. My bet is that D'Hara would swear allegiance to the empire if given a chance.

Also, again, Luria does not exist. Are you talking about Luria Nova? Pian en Luries? Solaria? Luria Vesperi? One of the various other splinter groups? Or do you mean "Lurian people" have claims? If so, who? By what means?

---

Again, I am NOT saying there's bad RP going on here or anything. I like what the Lurian nations (D'Hara, Luria Nova, Pian en luries, Solaria, Luria Vesperi, Giask, etc) have done with their land- and claim-obsessiveness. And I like the current conflict, it's a very neat storyline. But I'm just asserting that, as far as neutral OOC commentary: this is nonsense.

Also, the claim doesn't originate with Alanna, last I heard IC. The claim I've heard IC is that it originates with the Bedwyr family somewhere... as best I can tell via a 100% RP'd, completely non-mechanical imaginary grandmother of one of the Bedwyrs or something? I may be slightly off on it, but I recall it being approximately something that preposterous and fun.
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Anaris

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1161: April 18, 2013, 08:13:48 PM »
Luria does not exist.

Quote
D'Hara is a Lurian realm.

First of all, these two statements are mutually incompatible.

Second of all, they're both false.

Quote
The idea of an "illegal" Lurian rebel is giggle-worthy, methinks.

I didn't say they were an illegal realm. I said they were illegally occupying Lurian territory.

Quote
Also, again, Luria does not exist.

Yes, it does. Just because you don't understand it (or even explicitly don't recognize it) doesn't mean it doesn't, in multiple real senses, exist.

There has been a Lurian Empire of one form or another for most of the time since the founding of Shadovar. Until her disappearance and the usurpation of the Lurian throne by Koli Bedwyr, Alanna was the Empress of that Empire. In the time since then, things have gotten slightly more murky, but there's a reasonable claim to be made (IMNSHO) that Alanna never officially lost the position of Empress—and that her selection as Imperial Chancellor during the formation of...I forget, maybe the Third Empire? legitimizes her claim to all that she oversaw during that time.

Luria is not any one realm. A realm can be founded by a Lurian, and not be Lurian. (And vice versa, at least in theory.) Luria is a culture and an Empire. In order for a realm to truly be Lurian, it must have a clear chain of fealty to the Lurian Crown—which is, at present, held by Queen Alice Arundel, the first Monarch since the usurpation that Alanna really recognizes as legitimate.

Quote
Again, I am NOT saying there's bad RP going on here or anything. I like what the Lurian nations (D'Hara, Luria Nova, Pian en luries, Solaria, Luria Vesperi, Giask, etc) have done with their land- and claim-obsessiveness. And I like the current conflict, it's a very neat storyline. But I'm just asserting that, as far as neutral OOC commentary: this is nonsense.

Nonsense is, to some extent, in the eye of the beholder. Particularly when you're talking about legalities: they only ever make sense in the context of a given legal framework. Attempting to link them to any other legal framework, real or imagined, in order to either prove or disprove their legitimacy, is far more nonsensical.

Quote
Also, the claim doesn't originate with Alanna, last I heard IC. The claim I've heard IC is that it originates with the Bedwyr family somewhere...

That much I can confirm. I'm not sure exactly who first made the claim IC, though. When it was first brought up, I was pleasantly surprised at its inventiveness and coherence. I'd basically forgotten about Shadovar.
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JeVondair

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1162: April 18, 2013, 08:22:22 PM »
D'Hara does not share Luria's culture.
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Solari

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1163: April 18, 2013, 08:30:52 PM »
D'Hara does not share Luria's culture.

Bitter, divisive lords, fractious politics, and ambiguous religious identity with rising Astroist presence. Inability to unite for offensive actions. Sui generis government style with an inherited monarchy, but also, major focii of power elsewhere, especially dukes. Tendency to experience division and breakup on ducal lines. Founded starving, weak colony realm assisted by allies. Obsessed with ancient feuds and land claims.

Who am I describing?

Of course it doesn't.  :-*

Woelfy

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1164: April 18, 2013, 08:41:30 PM »
If you want a LEGAL followup of the claims of Koli Bedwyr, look no further than Sevastian Guile.

From Bedwyr - Solari  - Guile. Well publicized events, and rather popular ones, at the time.

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1165: April 18, 2013, 08:56:14 PM »
Quote from: JeVondair on Today at 08:22:22 PM

    D'Hara does not share Luria's culture.


Quote from: Vellos on Yesterday at 07:36:13 PM

    Bitter, divisive lords, fractious politics, and ambiguous religious identity with rising Astroist presence. Inability to unite for offensive actions. Sui generis government style with an inherited monarchy, but also, major focii of power elsewhere, especially dukes. Tendency to experience division and breakup on ducal lines. Founded starving, weak colony realm assisted by allies. Obsessed with ancient feuds and land claims.

    Who am I describing?


Interesting... I do see a lot of connections, Solari, but the tension in D'Hara doesn't seem to be that bad between the dukes, but between the knights and lords. Old nobility vs new nobility mainly. But there's blending happening, I think. The exile kings are knights and Ismail is a lord, it's all upside down.

Our land claims are never based on anything ancient, they're mostly a vague, pragmatic sense of stewardship and necessity, like what happened with Panabuk and Laraibina.

More reasons why I think the D'Haran politic is similar to ancient Rome's, whereas Lurian seems more French or English. The last old feudal claim I heard in a lord election was Mathias staking his family claim over Paisly, and that was a while ago now.


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Re: Luria
« Reply #1166: April 18, 2013, 10:15:36 PM »
Quote from: JeVondair on Today at 08:22:22 PM

    D'Hara does not share Luria's culture.


Quote from: Vellos on Yesterday at 07:36:13 PM

    Bitter, divisive lords, fractious politics, and ambiguous religious identity with rising Astroist presence. Inability to unite for offensive actions. Sui generis government style with an inherited monarchy, but also, major focii of power elsewhere, especially dukes. Tendency to experience division and breakup on ducal lines. Founded starving, weak colony realm assisted by allies. Obsessed with ancient feuds and land claims.

    Who am I describing?


Interesting... I do see a lot of connections, Solari, but the tension in D'Hara doesn't seem to be that bad between the dukes, but between the knights and lords. Old nobility vs new nobility mainly. But there's blending happening, I think. The exile kings are knights and Ismail is a lord, it's all upside down.

The more I've learned about the history between the two realms, the more similarities I've come to see. Like a strained relationship, those similarities can become incredibly irritating to both partners and even make things worse.

Quote
More reasons why I think the D'Haran politic is similar to ancient Rome's, whereas Lurian seems more French or English. The last old feudal claim I heard in a lord election was Mathias staking his family claim over Paisly, and that was a while ago now.

I'm not sure where I'd peg Luria's political culture. JPD did a lot of work back in the day trying to pin this down. It was generally assumed to be a Mediterranean or Byzantine influence, depending upon where one was in "Greater Luria". Solaria was run a bit like some North African relic from Roman times, for example.

Shizzle

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1167: April 18, 2013, 11:11:29 PM »
Solaria was run a bit like some North African relic from Roman times, for example.

Please explain?

JeVondair

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1168: April 18, 2013, 11:30:31 PM »
Indeed. It's nice to be able to juxtapose our BM realms with RL empires
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Luria
« Reply #1169: April 19, 2013, 12:53:28 AM »
I've always liked the Lurian culture. Its a shame its always so far away and foreign from where I've usually played.
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