Luria

[Tandaros]

Ugh, enough Forumaster.  Why don't you take this war IG... Whoever wins is right.

qft

[Vellos]

First of all, these two statements are mutually incompatible.

Second of all, they're both false.

Sorry, terminology mixup.

"Luria" does not exist as an entity capable of holding claim. It's a very loose geographical/cultural/historical reference and descriptor. "Luria" can't hold a claim any more than "Democracy" can hold a claim or "Puerto Rican-ness" can hold a claim. That's what I mean by "does not exist," i.e. "does not exist as a an agent capable of holding a claim."

On D'Hara: D'Hara is definitely a Lurian realm. A majority of their nobles are Lurian in origin for one thing. They're just the most factionalist faction of Luria.

I didn't say they were an illegal realm. I said they were illegally occupying Lurian territory.

Fair enough: except it's not legally Lurian territory under any definition of legal other than "Alanna asserts it is illegal."

There has been a Lurian Empire of one form or another for most of the time since the founding of Shadovar.

Norman England did not inherit the claims on Denmark that Saxon England held. Later England did not inherit the Norman claims on Normandy (at least not directly, only via separate marriages, by which means they also got Aquitaine). "a Lurian Empire," in order to hold onto claims, would need to be THE Lurian Empire. Or else at least be recognized as such by other legal agents, namely, other realms. I doubt you'll find many realms willing to legally recognize Luria Nova as synonymous with the Lurian Empire as synonymous with the Askileon-based ceremonial Pianian Empire as synonymous with older times when Pian en Luries was the whole area. Maybe if you trick some realms, but nobody will do it if they realize what they're saying. That would be like saying Madinan rulers who show up, or their kids, or their third cousins thrice removed's designated heirs elevated adventurer's best friend, could claim Golden Farrow.

The fact that there was sporadically an empire that got maybe some recognition (but probably not) as such by legitimacy-conferring agents and it happened to be culturally Lurian does not mean that they inherited claim. China has tried to claim ownership to several territories based on Ming and Qing dynasty claims: and every time they've tried this, it's been greeted with the legal equivalent of giggles. Same as when Malaysia tried to cite claim to Pedra Brance based on a sultanate from the 1500's. Just because there's a legal state YOU see as the inheritor doesn't mean it IS if everyone ELSE involved in those contracts didn't also think so: and where multiple states are concerned, that means both parties must agree.

Until her disappearance and the usurpation of the Lurian throne by Koli Bedwyr, Alanna was the Empress of that Empire. In the time since then, things have gotten slightly more murky, but there's a reasonable claim to be made (IMNSHO) that Alanna never officially lost the position of Empress—and that her selection as Imperial Chancellor during the formation of...I forget, maybe the Third Empire? legitimizes her claim to all that she oversaw during that time.

Third Empire. Case closed. Not the same. Is Alanna currently Queen of Pian en Luries/Empress of Pian en Luries? Was she ever not that? My thought is the answers are no and yes, respectively. If either of my expected answers are correct, she lost claim. You can't just drop off and pick up claims to lands. Also, the fact that she was selected as Chancellor weakens her claim if anything: the Empress of Pian en Luries should not allow herself to be made Chancellor of the empire of which she is Empress. If she was actually Empress, she would be recognized as such. The fact that she was not selected as such proves that these were non-contiguous entities with different legal bases, thus do not automatically inherit institutional claims (again, it's different for personal claims, like Solari's claim to Solaria, but ya'll have suggsested these are institutional, not personal, claims).

Luria is not any one realm. A realm can be founded by a Lurian, and not be Lurian. (And vice versa, at least in theory.) Luria is a culture and an Empire. In order for a realm to truly be Lurian, it must have a clear chain of fealty to the Lurian Crown—which is, at present, held by Queen Alice Arundel, the first Monarch since the usurpation that Alanna really recognizes as legitimate.

Neat idea, but not true. Again, let's be clear. I'm not saying that Alanna can't assert that this is true. But it's a misrepresentation of history, and totally at odds with any definition of legal claim ever used anywhere. Other monarcsh besides Alice have governed, and have done so with recognition by Luria's lords, and have asserted legal rights, and have exercised them, and have been recognized legally by the only people who can confer legitimacy in a pre-social contract era: other rulers. Alanna may regard Fulco (wasn't he before Alice? I forget) as having been a pretender, but Alanna can't be blamed, because she's a befuddled old lady Fulco was clearly legitimate, clearly exercised sovereignty, and, actually, he also asserted Lurian claim on D'Haran lands. So again: there HAVE been legitimate Lurian monarchs (in every sense of the word legitimate) not recognized as such as Alanna. The only way to refute that is to suggest that legitimacy is merely synonymous with Alanna's approval. Perhaps Luria believes that. My feeling is that isn't the case, however. If so, awesome: ya'll go for it, that's a neat RP story to tell. But, again, it's eccentric and atypical, and not at all remotely like what anyone would mean when they talk about legitimate claims.

Nonsense is, to some extent, in the eye of the beholder. Particularly when you're talking about legalities: they only ever make sense in the context of a given legal framework. Attempting to link them to any other legal framework, real or imagined, in order to either prove or disprove their legitimacy, is far more nonsensical.

No, it's not nonsensical to assess what is asserted as a legitimate claim by the only generally accepted standards of legitimacy. You can assert other sources of legitimacy. But ACTUAL legitimacy is merely a measure of what OTHER people will accept. Maybe BM generally has very different ideas of legitimacy: but international law in RL is not informed by super weird unintuitive things. It's basically intuitive. And actually, IMNSHO, BM is a great case study in international relations theory demonstrating that international law basically develops naturally.

That much I can confirm. I'm not sure exactly who first made the claim IC, though. When it was first brought up, I was pleasantly surprised at its inventiveness and coherence. I'd basically forgotten about Shadovar.

The story I heard is that Bedwyr saw starvation in D'Hara, and invented an NPC grandmother in an estate in Raviel, claiming she was high Shadovarian gentry forced into poverty by Katayanna's usurpations. She died of starvation in one of D'hara's periodic famines, and conferred all former Shadovarian claims to Bedwyr, and thence to whoever is representing the Bedwyr household.

My understanding is based on IC things I've been told, so could be erroneous. But I loved the idea of fabricating a starved NPC grandmother as a source for what's now become, in Dwilight time, a decade-long feud.

PS- I really like arguing about claims law.

[Vellos]

Conquering monarchs? The son of a former dictator of Shadovar is D'Haran. He has a far greater claim than Alanna Anaris does.

Game, set, match D'Hara on claims.

Just get that dude to publicly identify Machiavel Chénier as the representative and pressor of his claims to Shadovar.

[Arundel]

Ugh, enough Forumaster.  Why don't you take this war IG... Whoever wins is right.

I was about to write an elaborate response, but what you're saying makes a lot more sense. When it comes down to it, Alice will believe what she wants to believe, Hireshmont II will starve every other day in Saffalore , Rynn will continue threatening Alice with his fearsome Dragon Corps, and Alanna will have a claim because Alice says she has a claim. Deal with it.

Whoever wins is right.

[Dante Silverfire]

Vellos,

Your arguments are a bunch of crap. How can anyone who isn't Lurian define what Luria or Lurian is? You can't tell us our definitions of ourselves are not true. Who better would know what a Lurian is than someone who literally "made" Luria what it is today.

You can spout international law all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that the practice of RL law is based more upon the ability to win cases through one random loophole or the other, or some random piece of precedence that doesn't even matter. Battlemaster is a game, not Real Life law. I'm sorry that we as players didn't roleplay our characters to the standard of international laws of inheritance and claims. However, as a player in Luria, we sure roleplayed them well enough to pass on these claims FOR A GAME.

Finally, just to throw out the rest of your stupid arguments. The Morek Empire recognizes Luria Nova as the representative of the ongoing Lurian Empire, because it wasn't long ago that they signed a treaty with the reigning monarch of "Luria" Alice Arundel regarding splitting and reorganizing long-standing rights that were granted to Pian en Luries with its original land grant treaty with Morek (not the Morek Empire).

[Vellos]

Vellos,

Your arguments are a bunch of crap. How can anyone who isn't Lurian define what Luria or Lurian is? You can't tell us our definitions of ourselves are not true. Who better would know what a Lurian is than someone who literally "made" Luria what it is today.

You can spout international law all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that the practice of RL law is based more upon the ability to win cases through one random loophole or the other, or some random piece of precedence that doesn't even matter. Battlemaster is a game, not Real Life law. I'm sorry that we as players didn't roleplay our characters to the standard of international laws of inheritance and claims. However, as a player in Luria, we sure roleplayed them well enough to pass on these claims FOR A GAME.

Finally, just to throw out the rest of your stupid arguments. The Morek Empire recognizes Luria Nova as the representative of the ongoing Lurian Empire, because it wasn't long ago that they signed a treaty with the reigning monarch of "Luria" Alice Arundel regarding splitting and reorganizing long-standing rights that were granted to Pian en Luries with its original land grant treaty with Morek (not the Morek Empire).

Woah man. No need for hostility.

I clearly said there was nothing wrong with what y'all were doing. This whole discussion started with me commenting on how much I liked the story you all had chosen to play: it's fun to see people do crazy stuff like engaging in years and years of conflict over minuscule and contrived reasons. That's good RP.

No need to insult.

[Shizzle]

I was about to write an elaborate response, but what you're saying makes a lot more sense. When it comes down to it, Alice will believe what she wants to believe, Hireshmont II will starve every other day in Saffalore , Rynn will continue threatening Alice with his fearsome Dragon Corps, and Alanna will have a claim because Alice says she has a claim. Deal with it.

Whoever wins is right.

QFT.
Haha, couln't help but laugh with D'Hara after the most recent threat. Sorry JeVondair

On another note, Skyndarbau would better perish in the duel now. If not, Fissoa will likely have war with those frustrated Lurians on it's hands - as well as Aurvandil currently plundering Mangai - and I have written al those great goodbye interactions for nothing


Also, explained as to a five year old:
(Luria, Fissoa and D'Hara are playing together. Aurvandil is a spoiled kid who somehow always gets better gear from his parents)
(Luria): Hey Fissoa. I like you, but I don't like D'Hara. Want to be best friends? You can't be friends with D'Hara anymore, though. 
(Fissoa): But I don't want you two to fight! Sure, I'll be best friends if you want to, but I want a say in what games we play, and if you go pick on D'Hara I won't help! 
(Luria): I can understand. Sorry, but we can't be best friends anymore. 

(Fissoa): Hey D'Hara, Luria asked me to be best friends! I'm sorry, but I Luria has cooler toys. I asked her not to pick on you, though! 
(D'Hara): That's too bad, I wanted to be best friends too! But yes, Luria has way cooler toys than us. So I can understand .. I guess. 

(Luria): Fissoa, I know I didn't want to be best friends after all, but could you please just stand and watch while I bully D'Hara? 
(...)
(Luria): OMG! You talked to D'Hara behind my back? But I thought we were best friends! I'll never play with you again! 
(...)
(Luria): So I've been sulking for a while now, and actually I'm really angry! You better believe it! I want to fight [TO THE DEATH!] - you hurt my feelings real bad!!1!
(Fissoa): Eh. Wut? 
(D'Hara): Eh. Wut? 

(Fissoa): So, D'Hara, Luria wants to fight me. I think she's just being silly, but we won't be able to play with her toys if I don't give her what she wants. 
(D'Hara): I don't understand either. Maybe you shouldn't fight her. 
(Fissoa): Meh, I better just take her on.   

(Fissoa): Hey Luria. I'll fight if you want to. I would like to say goodbye to my parents though, and tell my friends I might not be coming back. And I need to tell my brothers and sisters who's getting my toys.   
(Luria): Okay, we'll fight at my place. Just hurry, I want to go kick D'Haran ass. 
(Fissoa): But I wanted to fight at my place! Doesn't the challenged get to pick? Well, okay ... I'm on my way. 

(D'Hara and others): Hey Fissoa, we want to come say goodbye before you go fight Luria. Can we stop by? 
(Fissoa): [Teary eyes] Sure! I'll wait at the corner. 

(Aurvandil): Hahaa! I'll burn Fissoa's house down whilst he is away! 

(Fissoa): Oh !@#$. Better call 911 and wait for D'Hara some more. 
(Luria): Omg! You broke your promise! You said you'd teleport to my house! You're such a bad friend (sic)! 

(Fissoa): ... What the !@#$ did I get into. 

------------------
Feel free to reply in a similar format from Lurian/D'Haran point of view. Maybe we need a new thread, though

[Wolfsong]

Amused me more than it should have.

[Chenier]

Game, set, match D'Hara on claims.

Just get that dude to publicly identify Machiavel Chénier as the representative and pressor of his claims to Shadovar.

Given he's a vassal and friend of Machiavel, recognition of the legitimacy of the Dragon Throne will be had.

[Anaris]

But ACTUAL legitimacy is merely a measure of what OTHER people will accept.

This is the only part of this post that I really agree with.

[Tandaros]

Hah, I got a kick out of Shizzle's five-year-old politics. Good !@#$ bro.

[Shizzle]

Hah, I got a kick out of Shizzle's five-year-old politics. Good !@#$ bro.

Yay! Might continue the series

[Lanyon]

I think it deserves its own thread shizzle!

[Chenier]

I think it deserves its own thread shizzle!

I agree. Dwi politics for 5 year olds.

[sharkattack]

If you only had pictures to go with that text, would be so much better but in any case keep it up!