Author Topic: Secret Religions  (Read 4597 times)

Geronus

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Secret Religions
« Topic Start: March 22, 2011, 10:06:09 PM »
I think it would be an intriguing addition to the game to make it possible for someone to found the secret society equivalent of a religion. Basically, think secretive cult. I think a few small changes could make this possible while utilizing the existing system.

1. Allow smaller temples and shrines to be hidden from view.

Basically, someone building a new shrine or temple could spend extra gold to make it "hidden". This would prevent anyone except for followers of the religion from seeing it. If the temple were expanded beyond a certain relatively small size (say a primitive temple, or possibly smaller), it would automatically lose its secret status. Or, perhaps it has to be torn down and an official temple has to be built from scratch to make it public. As a trade off, they cost more and would have a reduced effect on conversion rates. Someone in the region who suspected the presence of such a temple could attempt to find it with a unit of men. If successful, it could be sacked.

2. Allow secret practitioners.

One thing that bothers me about the current system is how the game seems to assume that religious affiliation is public knowledge in one specific case. If you are the lord of a region with peasants who belong a majority religion that has decreed your faith to be evil, the game operates as if the peasants know of your affiliation. Every now and then in the Daily Region Report, you get a line that says "The peasants are unhappy that their lord belongs to an evil faith" (or something like that). This can have the effect of outing you to your entire realm. If you have joined an enemy realm's faith, this can create problems for you. If I'm a member of a faith that I know full well is considered evil by my countrymen, why on earth would I make it public knowledge? I'd practice in secret, of course. I'd suggest adding an option in the politics or command section allowing you to hide your religious affiliation. The religion doesn't get the small bonus to conversion that accrues from having you as lord of a region, but you don't get publicly outed.

3. Allow secret sermons.

A priest would be able to preach secretly. No announcement would be made to nobles nearby, but at the cost of a significantly reduced effect on conversion.

The net effect of this would be to allow unpopular religions to worm their insidious way into unsuspecting realms more easily. This can range from efforts by an established and very public religion to infiltrate a hostile realm to the creation of a religion that is designed to be more cult-like and sinister with entirely hidden temples and a hidden agenda. Naturally, if all your temples are secret they will also be small and you won't get converts easily (private sermon only), but that's how something like this *should* work. I also think the potential atmosphere of paranoia and secrecy could be very rewarding. You'll see that a heretical religion is gaining followers in some of your regions, but you can't prove anything... Yet. Do you send troops into the regions to search for secret meeting places of banned religions at the risk of alienating your lords and being embarrassed if nothing is turned up? How do you know which lords have been turned?

Thoughts?

Anaris

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #1: March 22, 2011, 10:39:20 PM »
This has been rejected by Tom in the past.

If you want to run a secret cult, just make it a secret society.  By its very nature, a religion must be public.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Geronus

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #2: March 22, 2011, 11:20:39 PM »
I disagree. Its existence must be common knowledge, but in places it is not unrealistic to expect that members of a certain sect might want to practice secretly to avoid persecution.

This is partly why my suggestion is not to create whole new parallel religion system that is completely secret, but to add a couple features to the existing one. Other religions would still see that a religion exists and be able to declare it to be evil. Priests would still not be able to hide their affiliation. And to have meaningful followings that give you access to the truly powerful religious options, you will of course have to expand temples past the point where they can be kept secret and preach openly to the populace.

I simply think that the option to keep *some* things secret in certain places or under certain circumstances would be overall a positive enhancement to the religion system and allow persecuted religious minorities to attempt to hide from the authorities in realms where they are not welcome. Think of the intrigue!

Of course Tom's opinion is the last word, but I hope that these concepts will at least be given some thought.

Solari

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #3: March 22, 2011, 11:22:04 PM »
This has been rejected by Tom in the past.

If you want to run a secret cult, just make it a secret society.  By its very nature, a religion must be public.


Or create a Secret Society as a companion to a religion.  You can't say that priests are acting as agents of the Society if you don't know the Society exists.

De-Legro

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #4: March 22, 2011, 11:55:12 PM »

Or create a Secret Society as a companion to a religion.  You can't say that priests are acting as agents of the Society if you don't know the Society exists.

This is how I've handled it in the past. Though we didn't have priest, what would we want to have stinky peasants following our religion for anyway. Better to ensure the faithful are not diluted with their bad blood.
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Anaris

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #5: March 23, 2011, 01:06:21 AM »
I disagree. Its existence must be common knowledge, but in places it is not unrealistic to expect that members of a certain sect might want to practice secretly to avoid persecution.

If you are practicing as a noble secret sect, that works perfectly as a secret society.  If you want to gain common followers, you are going to have to make it public sooner or later.

For temples and shrines to be of any use, they must be known about.  For a sermon to be able to convert people, you necessarily have to bring in people not already part of the faith.

If you just want to keep your membership in a religion secret from your realm, then don't become a priest and don't accept a lordship. Then no one who's not already in the religion can identify you.

In the end, you can choose: secrecy, or power over the commoners.  That's the tradeoff you have to make.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Geronus

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #6: March 23, 2011, 01:35:37 AM »
For temples and shrines to be of any use, they must be known about.  For a sermon to be able to convert people, you necessarily have to bring in people not already part of the faith...

...In the end, you can choose: secrecy, or power over the commoners.  That's the tradeoff you have to make.

Which are the trade-offs I had hoped that my suggestions reflect. The difference is that you could build up *some* degree of influence or power secretly, albeit to a very limited extent.

You're right about a secret society being better if you just want a small cult of nobles. I guess what I'm really looking for is some expanded options for religions that are persecuted in places to secretly build up small numbers of followers, including both commoners and nobles. Or alternately, for a new religion to start out being secretive while it gathers support to, say, displace the current state religion. The preponderance of relatively shallow 'state' religions has been griped about elsewhere. I would like to think that some of the features I suggested might encourage or enable challenges to those religions. Allow a rival religion to get a little something going before taking the fight into the open.

Aldwoni

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #7: March 23, 2011, 03:42:09 PM »
I'm not sure if it is related but what if there is a new option in Battlemaster called "Cults":
If you are an elder member of a religion, you can start a cult. Cults are sub-groups of a religion.
for example: a religion called Christianity could have 3 cults: Protestantism, Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox churches
So the religions are based on the same ideas(or at least have some ideas in common) but aren't the same. Other possible cults could be a group of 'mostly' infiltrators which act based on their believes but not always communicate with the religion.

A cult can own temples, have members but all members and temples are also part of the religion. Outsiders(members of other religions) mostly don't know of the existence of cults.

If a cult wants, they can start a new religion. Then all temples and members of the cult become part of the new religion. depending on how they split they will automaticly see the old religion as  variant or evil . the same applies for the old religion to the new religion.
The religion can also try to disband an cult. the elder members of the cult have the choice to disband or split.

Elder members of a cult don't need to be elder members of the religion.


Geronus

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #8: March 23, 2011, 03:51:25 PM »
That would be a very interesting idea, but probably deserves its own thread. I would love to see a formal mechanic to more easily enable schisms, and this is actually a very good suggestion in that regard as it allows people in an existing religion to divide themselves into sects prior to attempting to create a separate faith. This would solve the issue of "How do we know which temples, nobles and peasant followers go with the new religion when it schisms?".

squishymaster

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #9: March 23, 2011, 04:36:47 PM »
Not to mention having such sub sets can in itself bring about schisms.  I also like the idea and also agree it needs its own thread as it is a bit off topic.

+1 for secret religions making sense and being an interesting addition to the game.

egamma

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Re: Secret Religions
« Reply #10: March 24, 2011, 08:59:20 PM »
(assuming a moderator will move this)

I like this as well. priest-region lords would be able to take the temple in their region with them to the new religion.

Also, religions set to "variant" should be allowed to merge--possibly wiht a 20% loss of followers of both religions.