Author Topic: War please.  (Read 85188 times)

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: War please.
« Reply #270: July 04, 2012, 03:03:52 AM »
Not trying to argue on this, but I am curious, what were the terms for peace?

The first four times I offered peace, it was unconditional. A "you leave me alone, I'll leave you alone, and preferably for this amount of time at least".

Penchant

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Re: War please.
« Reply #271: July 04, 2012, 03:04:39 AM »
The first four times I offered peace, it was unconditional. A "you leave me alone, I'll leave you alone, and preferably for this amount of time at least".
Ok, so what were they the fifth time then?
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Geronus

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Re: War please.
« Reply #272: July 04, 2012, 03:05:39 AM »
And as for boredom? Even if Aurvandil destroyed all our local enemies, i'd still rather sit in the wasteland surrounding aurvandil and twiddle my thumbs than move to SA

 ??? Did I say anything about joining SA?

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: War please.
« Reply #273: July 04, 2012, 03:07:02 AM »
Ok, so what were they the fifth time then?


I offered to be merciful, but not unconditional, this was after Tower Fatmilak had fell.


Vellos

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Re: War please.
« Reply #274: July 04, 2012, 03:11:19 AM »
That's interesting, in my experience it was only ever Madina who were rude and uncouth, Aurvandil went to great lengths to be exaggeratedly polite when the situation called for it, and it was only ever Madina that kept trying to call us out for post battle spitting contests.

As far as Moot observers ever saw, Madinans typically made rational arguments (and Madinans were civilized enough to send real delegates to the Moot, while Aurvandil ignored us). Madinans seemed to want us to be their friends; Aurvandil just insulted the Moot's delegate repeatedly when he arrived (that being Hireshmont). I don't know what insults were flung back and forth; but from Moot observers' perspective: Madina cared about the opinions of nobles abroad, cared about their reputation, cared about responding to arguments with rational arguments, cared about negotiation– Aurvandil did not display any of these. For a diplomacy-obsessed group like the Moot, Aurvandil's aloofness is offensive. Like the US invasion of Iraq from the perspective of most of Europe, for example.

As for "expansionist" do you mean when we were forced to expand over Madina because Madina refused to surrender, or accept unconditional peace?

Yes. ICly, none of the Moot (or at least very few of them) were ever aware that Madina was offered any reasonable peace terms. OOCly, I didn't even ever know that. I am almost sure I remember Aurvandil demanding their total, unconditional surrender during battles in Fatmilak; but maybe I'm wrong. But beyond that, the map of Orvandeaux Candielia was exceptionally offensive to the Moot, as well as many of Mendicant's claims to absolutist sovereignty. Mendicant's language about himself is, by and large, unnacceptable to the Moot, as it implies claims which we would contest. And also...

As for aggressive, do you mean after Madina declared they would purge us from existence and execute our government and nobles, whereas Aurvandil would repeatedly offer peace to Madina, and to show mercy to their nobles? Which we did regardless of whether or not they accept.

Again, that's not how it looked to the outside world. If by "mercy" you mean demanding that they all surrender their autonomy, destroy their culture, and pay obeisance to Mendicant– that is not very impressive mercy. Maybe our perception was false; but Aurvandil never bothered to work on its friendships abroad. Indeed, it usually seemed like you worked very, very hard to pointedly offend every Moot official you talked to, even the ones ya'll supposedly liked or respected.

Aurvandil has planned for that, sort of, we can always fight what new realm we create in Madina City.

And this. We've been hearing about this for a while. You've had quite a few opportunities. But it hasn't happened. Most who know about it in the Moot have, I believe, concluded it was always a lie Mendicant was using to make his grasp for more personal power appear less dangerous.
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DamnTaffer

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Re: War please.
« Reply #275: July 04, 2012, 03:14:25 AM »
And this. We've been hearing about this for a while. You've had quite a few opportunities. But it hasn't happened. Most who know about it in the Moot have, I believe, concluded it was always a lie Mendicant was using to make his grasp for more personal power appear less dangerous.

I am the Dutchess of the Madina dutchy, there are two reason i've not already made a new realm. Firstly i've not enough nobles, secondly, the button is bugged.

Oh and we're not food efficient, i've not thought of good RP for it and we're poor. There are probably more reasons but the button not being there is the most crippling,
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 03:41:04 AM by DamnTaffer »

Geronus

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Re: War please.
« Reply #276: July 04, 2012, 03:15:46 AM »
Nothing, I was just using S.A. for comparison to a possible similar situation in the south, such as you posed.

...Now I'm twice as confused. I was responding to DamnTaffer, not to your earlier comment.  ???

As for SA, I do think we've been too successful to sustain over the long term. Eventually we will fight each other.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: War please.
« Reply #277: July 04, 2012, 03:19:02 AM »
As far as Moot observers ever saw, Madinans typically made rational arguments (and Madinans were civilized enough to send real delegates to the Moot, while Aurvandil ignored us). Madinans seemed to want us to be their friends; Aurvandil just insulted the Moot's delegate repeatedly when he arrived (that being Hireshmont). I don't know what insults were flung back and forth; but from Moot observers' perspective: Madina cared about the opinions of nobles abroad, cared about their reputation, cared about responding to arguments with rational arguments, cared about negotiation– Aurvandil did not display any of these. For a diplomacy-obsessed group like the Moot, Aurvandil's aloofness is offensive. Like the US invasion of Iraq from the perspective of most of Europe, for example.

Oh, that nonsense, that was Aurvandil saying "Yeah, we're not going to debase ourselves spinning tall tales and trying to win favour by verbally sucking you/ourself off for attention". Which, in our perspective is showing a lot more respect to the Veinsormoot delegates, we don't lube them up with bull!@#$ basically. That is all it was.


Yes. ICly, none of the Moot (or at least very few of them) were ever aware that Madina was offered any reasonable peace terms. OOCly, I didn't even ever know that. I am almost sure I remember Aurvandil demanding their total, unconditional surrender during battles in Fatmilak; but maybe I'm wrong. But beyond that, the map of Orvandeaux Candielia was exceptionally offensive to the Moot, as well as many of Mendicant's claims to absolutist sovereignty. Mendicant's language about himself is, by and large, unnacceptable to the Moot, as it implies claims which we would contest. And also...

Well, why would Aurvandil keep the Veinsormoot in the loop? The Veinsormoot never asked, and it would just seem like he was seeking their approval or attention by constantly pestering them with letters, if the Veinsormoot were interested, they would have asked simply. Mendicant made it clear he's a minimalist on foreign relations, but at the same time he's never refused to answer questions, or reply to letters sent to him, the option was always there for the Veinsormoot to speak to him. Also, what exactly was offensive about his claims to absolute sovereignty? And even more importantly, why does the Veinsormoot consider their own opinion on that important and relevant enough to pass judgement on the matter?


Again, that's not how it looked to the outside world. If by "mercy" you mean demanding that they all surrender their autonomy, destroy their culture, and pay obeisance to Mendicant– that is not very impressive mercy. Maybe our perception was false; but Aurvandil never bothered to work on its friendships abroad. Indeed, it usually seemed like you worked very, very hard to pointedly offend every Moot official you talked to, even the ones ya'll supposedly liked or respected.


Well, Mendicant's mercy was largely expended when they refused unconditional peace four times, and the offer of the High Sovereign's prerogative of mercy, something they even mocked and ridiculed him for. Open scorn and contempt.

And this. We've been hearing about this for a while. You've had quite a few opportunities. But it hasn't happened. Most who know about it in the Moot have, I believe, concluded it was always a lie Mendicant was using to make his grasp for more personal power appear less dangerous.

Which, even now is amusingly wrong. Mendicant considers his power completely secure and unchallengeable in the Orveandeaux Candiela alone, he doesn't need to spread it further. He's a God in his Commonwealth and Imperial City. He's also made it very clear, he sees Madina as dead weight dragging down his Chevaliers, but the problem is the secession coding is broken right now, with the new estates, so we actually can't secede. And there is the fact Madina City kept revolting, but I don't imagine the Veinsormoot had the presence of mind to consider that.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 03:23:26 AM by NoblesseChevaleresque »

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: War please.
« Reply #278: July 04, 2012, 03:21:08 AM »
...Now I'm twice as confused. I was responding to DamnTaffer, not to your earlier comment.  ???

As for SA, I do think we've been too successful to sustain over the long term. Eventually we will fight each other.

Yes apologies, I realised my mistake after I posted and edited it out of my original.

Penchant

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Re: War please.
« Reply #279: July 04, 2012, 03:21:55 AM »
I offered to be merciful, but not unconditional, this was after Tower Fatmilak had fell.
Just saying thats not terms, but your opinion on the terms you gave. I was and still am wondering what the terms actually were
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Geronus

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Re: War please.
« Reply #280: July 04, 2012, 03:28:26 AM »
Oh, that nonsense, that was Aurvandil saying "Yeah, we're not going to debase ourselves spinning tall tales and trying to win favour by verbally sucking you/ourself off for attention". Which, in our perspective is showing a lot more respect to the Veinsormoot delegates, we don't lube them up with bull!@#$ basically. That is all it was.

Yeah, but... It kinda sounds like all that lube is important to them  8)

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: War please.
« Reply #281: July 04, 2012, 03:30:29 AM »
Just saying thats not terms, but your opinion on the terms you gave. I was and still am wondering what the terms actually were

Well, that's because we never even got to the stage of giving terms, Madina was telling Mendicant to go to hell the moment he wrote to them to discuss it.

Yeah, but... It kinda sounds like all that lube is important to them  8)

When Mendicant takes you from behind, you'll get neither lube or a reach around, as Barca can accurately attest to.

JPierreD

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Re: War please.
« Reply #282: July 04, 2012, 04:12:53 AM »
You know what they say, create crows and they'll eat your eyes...
Btw, I'm dying to see a Madina-based realm ruled by DamnTaffer. It will be the southern Kabrinskia!
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Vellos

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Re: War please.
« Reply #283: July 04, 2012, 04:16:23 AM »
Oh, that nonsense, that was Aurvandil saying "Yeah, we're not going to debase ourselves spinning tall tales and trying to win favour by verbally sucking you/ourself off for attention". Which, in our perspective is showing a lot more respect to the Veinsormoot delegates, we don't lube them up with bull!@#$ basically. That is all it was.

You're a medieval noble for cryin' out loud. This is why the Moot sees Aurvandil as uncivilized. Because you are incompetent at diplomacy, but excessive in violence. More like monster-spawns than men. "Your perspective" doesn't matter in diplomacy; at least not in isolation. The Moot has clearly defined, and quite obvious, expectations and ways of doing things. You can ignore them, certainly: brashly ignoring the social norms of your neighbors is uncouth and barbarous (in fact, I would argue that's the precise definition of barbarism, but that's just etymological quibbling). You can do that if you want. But just fess up to the fact that you're an uncivilized barbarian. There are lots of them in BM. I'm looking at you, Norland/BoM. It's the simultaneous pretensions at high culture with the actuality of rapacious tyranny that is bothersome.

When Hireshmont came to Aurvandil, the Moot was considering military intervention in the war. On which side was not determined, but the Moot was leaning towards intervention on behalf of Aurvandil. Aurvandil's conduct turned the tide towards a supporting Madina; now, we detested Madina too much to do anything about it, so you didn't really suffer too much for it, but diplomacy isn't just bull!@#$, either in RL or BM. In RL, many countries have believed that: some have gotten away with it (North Korea, arguably the US), while others have not (Iraq, Libya, Iran quite recently with serious sanctions, possibly Syria in the near future).

Well, why would Aurvandil keep the Veinsormoot in the loop? The Veinsormoot never asked, and it would just seem like he was seeking their approval or attention by constantly pestering them with letters, if the Veinsormoot were interested, they would have asked simply. Mendicant made it clear he's a minimalist on foreign relations, but at the same time he's never refused to answer questions, or reply to letters sent to him, the option was always there for the Veinsormoot to speak to him. Also, what exactly was offensive about his claims to absolute sovereignty? And even more importantly, why does the Veinsormoot consider their own opinion on that important and relevant enough to pass judgement on the matter?

And then you turn around and say this, which is full of falsehoods. The Moot sent 3 separate delegations to Aurvandil. 2 were just ignored flat out. Most messages to Mendicant were greeted with the same, "We're not talking to you, but let me declare my Right to Rule the World, and insult your system of government a few times." As for why you would want the Moot in the loop: maybe there's no reason. Perhaps Aurvandil is truly powerful enough that you genuinely do not need, and will never need, allies. Maybe. But unless Aurvandil changes its ways, you'd better hope that remains true forever: because you're not winning many friends. Again, the US parallels are uncanny.

Claims to absolute sovereignty over the continent of Anhangphalia (which is almost an exact quote), over all the Orvandeaux (which your royal cartogrophers have including several Moot-controlled regions), and quite a few other specific titles mentioned at various times, all indicate claims on Moot territory. Given your imperialist rhetoric and apparent take-no-prisoners, war-to-destruction mentality, as well as the long and glorious Saxon history of violence, the logical leap is an easy one to make.

Still, it is amazing to me how Aurvandil has turned on the only people who ever tried to help them. Realms like Fissoa that actually sent armies to fight Aurvandil get ignored, while Barca, a realm that actively lobbied for Aurvandil and ceded lands to you, gets attacked. The power block that saved your ass when you were weak gets disparaged, and is repaid for practically guaranteeing you a stable, peacable backyard with invasion. Crazy.
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Penchant

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Re: War please.
« Reply #284: July 04, 2012, 04:24:37 AM »
And even more importantly, why does the Veinsormoot consider their own opinion on that important and relevant enough to pass judgement on the matter?
Doesn't this kinda sound like what Aurvandil is doing right now with Barca except you guys are declaring war because of it and the moot never did.
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