Punishing Players for Not Moving within Half A Turn

[BattleMaster Server]

Summary:	Punishing Players for Not Moving within Half A Turn
Violation:	Inalienable Rights
World:	Dwilight
Complainer:	Peter Wen
About:	Allomere

Full Complaint Text:
Letter from Allomere de' Striguile   (17 hours, 32 minutes ago)
 
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
 
Marshal Fal'Cie,
 

 
Are you seeking to claim that under your command the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz is so diminished it can't respond to orders at times it always has been able to? Have you let our prime army waste and dwindle so that it performs like any other rabble from any other realm, requiring a day's notice before it can even be dragged into the field? Are you really going to publically announce that none of the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz will be able to move with half the night still ahead of them...you're supposed to be an experienced commander, but of late it seems you can't even co-ordinate hunting down monsters...These orders are a punishment for your attitude and your unchevalier conduct. I expect them fulfilled, that is I expect to see you in Fields by morn, and Zerujil by dusk, and for the monsters to be destroyed by that time. If not, you will face further consequences, and they will be dire. March well, Marshal, and do as a commander should.
 
Allomere de' Striguile
 
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

[Anaris]

The language used isn't the easiest to understand, but this does sound like an IR violation.

[Indirik]

Some additional background would be helpful. What message was sent that prompted this? What time were the messages sent? What times were these in relations to the turn change?

"I expect them fulfilled, that is I expect to see you in Fields by morn, and Zerujil by dusk, and for the monsters to be destroyed by that time. If not, you will face further consequences, and they will be dire. "

Are we supposed to infer that this message was sent 6 hours before the sunrise (i.e. morning) turn change, and is demanding that the recipient set movement within those 6 hours?

[Anaris]

Yes, the message appears to have been sent approximately 5 hours before today's sunrise turn. (Today being Tuesday the 19th, for posterity.)

Here are the two immediately preceding relevant messages:

Letter from Allomere de' Striguile   (19 hours, 29 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)

Marshal Fal'Cie,

Those things which are only monsters decimated an expensive unit of Duke Sarit who was only in my region to help me keep the local pygmees in-line, while chevaliers abandoned Candiels Fields instead of moving to support him, chevaliers in your army. I shouldn't be seeing a marshal making mockery over such an occasion especially when Duke Sarit's unit is a component in the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz of which you command, and of which you are directly responsible.

Now since you find this so amusing I expect to see you on the road to Fields within the hour, with a detachment of your army, to have those monsters cleared by evening tomorow.

I hope I have made myself clear.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Letter from Fal'Cie Nachtmahr   (18 hours, 23 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
Knight Hausos,

You have left it quite late in the night to be giving orders for a force deployment; may I suggest that in future you keep your recriminations and subsequent orders to a time when Chevaliers can realistically respond to them in full.

As for Arbiter of Justice's Sarit's performance on the battlefield, if you didn't want an expensive force wasted you should have given orders before the event, not many, many hours later, during the night. As for the apparent "Mockery", it can be scarcely be considered so, merely a sardonic reply to Sarit's most un-Chevalier like whining at the realm because she failed in her command against a band of monsters, which certainly isn't the Chevalier spirit of Aurvandil.

You have made yourself clear, and I likewise hope that I have been suitably transparent so as to create an ease of understand between us, and anyone else who has been reading this letter.

Fal'Cie Nachtmahr
Marshal of the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz

At the time of this posting, the original offending message shows as being 18 hours old.

[Foundation]

Relevant messages in Chronological order (warning, extreme verbosity may follow for the sake of fairness and completeness, no opinions are presented in this post):

Current time (last edit): server time: 19:01 Tuesday

Request from Sarit Noyan   (1 day, 6 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
I request all those in Candiels Fields move to assist me and my men in Zerujil. There are over 25 monsters to be slain.
Sarit Noyan
Arbiter Of Justice of Aurvandil, Duke of Marquessate Of Evanburg, Margrave of Evanburg

Turn change:

Battle in Zerujil   (1 day ago)
(rogue) vs. Aurvandil
Estimated strengths: 20 men vs. 60 men
Sarit Noyan, Arbiter Of Justice of Aurvandil, Duke of Marquessate Of Evanburg, Margrave of Evanburg is spotted reading from the Blessed Book.
Attacker Victory!

Report from Sarit Noyan   (23 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
Scribe Note Battle in Zerujil

Nice to see the chevalier spirit, that none of those in Fields came to assist.

Sarit Noyan
Arbiter Of Justice of Aurvandil, Duke of Marquessate Of Evanburg, Margrave of Evanburg

Letter from Fal'Cie Nachtmahr   (21 hours, 36 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
But of course Arbiter of Justice, they are only monsters after all.
Fal'Cie Nachtmahr
Marshal of the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz

Letter from Allomere de' Striguile   (19 hours, 28 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
Marshal Fal'Cie,

Those things which are only monsters decimated an expensive unit of Duke Sarit who was only in my region to help me keep the local pygmees in-line, while chevaliers abandoned Candiels Fields instead of moving to support him, chevaliers in your army. I shouldn't be seeing a marshal making mockery over such an occasion especially when Duke Sarit's unit is a component in the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz of which you command, and of which you are directly responsible.

Now since you find this so amusing I expect to see you on the road to Fields within the hour, with a detachment of your army, to have those monsters cleared by evening tomorow.

I hope I have made myself clear.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Letter from Fal'Cie Nachtmahr   (18 hours, 22 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
Knight Hausos,

You have left it quite late in the night to be giving orders for a force deployment; may I suggest that in future you keep your recriminations and subsequent orders to a time when Chevaliers can realistically respond to them in full.

As for Arbiter of Justice's Sarit's performance on the battlefield, if you didn't want an expensive force wasted you should have given orders before the event, not many, many hours later, during the night. As for the apparent "Mockery", it can be scarcely be considered so, merely a sardonic reply to Sarit's most un-Chevalier like whining at the realm because she failed in her command against a band of monsters, which certainly isn't the Chevalier spirit of Aurvandil.

You have made yourself clear, and I likewise hope that I have been suitably transparent so as to create an ease of understand between us, and anyone else who has been reading this letter.
Fal'Cie Nachtmahr
Marshal of the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz

Letter from Allomere de' Striguile   (18 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
Marshal Fal'Cie,

Are you seeking to claim that under your command the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz is so diminished it can't respond to orders at times it always has been able to? Have you let our prime army waste and dwindle so that it performs like any other rabble from any other realm, requiring a day's notice before it can even be dragged into the field? Are you really going to publically announce that none of the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz will be able to move with half the night still ahead of them, or that at the other extreme that is would even require many of the Hausos to move to rid the region of monsters? I shouldn't have to give orders to you for such minor events Marshal Fal'Cie because you're supposed to be an experienced commander, but of late it seems you can't even co-ordinate hunting down monsters and then you and you alone act in an unchevalier manner by claiming because you were not ordered to such basic duties you simply can't fulfil them.

Are those monsters too much for you? If Duke Sarit's own forces were so lacking in your view then why are you not happily marching out singlehandedly to prove how you could have bested them alone instead of complaining for being duly chastised? Don't make claims you cannot back up yourself, Marshal, or you will swiftly find very great humilation for every single failing you have.

What is clear is that Duke Sarit did not fail in command, for he quite willingly held the field and fought despite the odds. What he expected was support from chevaliers in your army, which falls to you to command, and to which with due dilligence and fortitude on your part we would have seen victory rather than a scattering.

These orders are a punishment for your attitude and your unchevalier conduct. I expect them fulfilled, that is I expect to see you in Fields by morn, and Zerujil by dusk, and for the monsters to be destroyed by that time. If not, you will face further consequences, and they will be dire. March well, Marshal, and do as a commander should.
Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

[Indirik]

So to make sure I understand:

19:30 ago (6.5 hours before the turn): Allomere says "I expect to see you on the road to Fields within the hour"

18:30 ago (5.5 hours before the turn): Fal'Cie says "You have left it quite late in the night to be giving orders for a force deployment; "

18:00 ago (5 hours before the turn): Allomere says "I expect to see you in Fields by morn"

13:00 ago: The sun comes up for morning turn.

[DamnTaffer]

So to make sure I understand:

19:30 ago (6.5 hours before the turn): Allomere says "I expect to see you on the road to Fields within the hour"

18:30 ago (5.5 hours before the turn): Fal'Cie says "You have left it quite late in the night to be giving orders for a force deployment; "

18:00 ago (5 hours before the turn): Allomere says "I expect to see you in Fields by morn"

13:00 ago: The sun comes up for morning turn.

So the events are as follows:

Fal'cie insults Sarit suggesting that he/she shouldn't need help against monsters

Allomere to punish Fal'cie sends him alone into battle

Fal'cie refuses to follow orders

Allomere says that he expects Fal'cie to be there by morning.


Inactivity isn't relevant here, Fal'cie is definately OOC able to follow the orders as he responded to refuse.

[Anaris]

There was an explicit threat of punishment if the entire army did not comply with orders within a specified and very short period of time. That is a violation of the IR.

[Perth]

There was an explicit threat of punishment if the entire army did not comply with orders within a specified and very short period of time. That is a violation of the IR.

So... how many hours puts you over the limit into an IR violation then?

If I wait 2 hours into the turn before I order my army to move is that a "specified an very short period of time" that they would have to move? If I wait 4 hours? Seems quite arbitrary.

[Ehndras]

The point isn't the order, its the act of threatening players if they don't comply. We have lives and therefore cannot be damned if we don't happen to log in that turn or even that day. Having to turn around and go through complex orders is utterly against the 'play 15 minutes a day if you wish, thats all it takes' credo this game totes.

Go ahead and give the other, but don't start threatening fines and punishment just because people have real lives, careers, and families, and cannot immediately log in to do a split-second move. Its an issue I've always faced during my times as leader and general in various strategy-war games. In the end, we can't be anything but understanding of their plight, as one cannot expect every player to log in multiple times a day and have time for last-minute maneuvers.

[Fury]

What I read is the order to move out and be in a certain region by a certain time or punishment would follow is due to:

• Allomere de' Striguile feeling that Fal'Cie Nachtmahr was not serious in his duties and instead of supporting a fellow chevalier made light of the event

If you are fined, banned, threatened or otherwise punished for "inactivity", or for not having been online at any specific time or day

Moving out or being in a specific location by a certain time is a normal part of army movements and strategy. The threat of punishment appears to be directed only towards Fal'Cie Nachtmahr instead of the army and is not for being inactive or not online at a specific time or day but for making light of the event and failing to co-ordinate hunting down monsters.

Inactivity IR is OOC. This sounds IC conflict.

[Zakilevo]

You can never fine people for not making it in time.

You can provide incentives but not fines.

[Penchant]

Question for the magistrates, In order for it to be a violation does he have to act on the threat and actually punish or is it a violation just to threaten to punish for inactivity?

[Velax]

Just threatening is enough.

Moving out or being in a specific location by a certain time is a normal part of army movements and strategy. The threat of punishment appears to be directed only towards Fal'Cie Nachtmahr instead of the army and is not for being inactive or not online at a specific time or day but for making light of the event and failing to co-ordinate hunting down monsters.

Inactivity IR is OOC. This sounds IC conflict.

I expect them fulfilled, that is I expect to see you in Fields by morn, and Zerujil by dusk, and for the monsters to be destroyed by that time. If not, you will face further consequences, and they will be dire.

Seems pretty clear to me that Fal'Cie was being ordered to be in a certain place by a certain time, and if he wasn't, he would be punished. Looks like a clear violation to me.

[Tom]

Question for the magistrates, In order for it to be a violation does he have to act on the threat and actually punish or is it a violation just to threaten to punish for inactivity?

By my interpretation, by threatening consequences, you cross the line. Saying "I want the army in X by tomorrow morning" is fine, we don't want to be too aggressive about IRs and there needs to be some way to organise and work the army. But if you say something like that, there's an implicit understanding that some people might not make it for OOC reasons, and you are to simply accept those reasons, even if they are never given (nobody has to explain his OOC reasons). Therefore, you can not threaten consequences, not fines, not bans, not even a stern look.