Author Topic: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia  (Read 9456 times)

House Talratheon

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REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Topic Start: June 23, 2012, 12:43:50 PM »
Title:  Blacksmith Paraphernalia

Summary: Paraphernalia nobles whom have units may recruit for the purpose of minimally repairing his unit's armor and weapons in the field and during travel, however not as extensively as if a noble were to visit a city to get it all repaired.

Details: Simply recruit blacksmith paraphernalia with your unit, and their sole purpose as they are paid is to mend and repair weapons and armor in the field to give units the ability to stay in the field longer considering the noble in question has the gold to pay him. However unlike healer units and scouts the black smith would demand a higher sum of gold considering how much repairing he's done that week, however he will not able to repair all your damage merely the minimal amount due to his own lack of supplies.

Benefits: Keeps fighting units in the field longer without the requirements of visiting cities just to meet repairs, works in conjunction as an additional gold sink for nobles able and or  willing to afford the services of a blacksmith. Would give more diversity to war, where as nobles requesting gold to afford services of blacksmiths to travel with their units.

Possible Exploits: None come to mind.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 03:06:03 AM by egamma »

Indirik

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #1: June 23, 2012, 02:58:09 PM »
There was a write-up someone did on the wiki, probably under the wish list page, as to why a portable smithy was completely unrealistic.
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House Talratheon

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #2: June 23, 2012, 03:42:40 PM »
There was a write-up someone did on the wiki, probably under the wish list page, as to why a portable smithy was completely unrealistic.

Thanks for the heads up but I read it and have a few arguments of my own.

In the text of the wiki: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Science_of_the_Smith

Quote
In Conclusion, minor repairs were often done in the field by smiths traveling with the army, but the kind of equipment repair that many are wishing about here simply cannot be done without reforging the weapon, which is a process takes too much time and resources for BattleMaster armies on the move to be able to handle.

However, if you don't mind your army staying in the region for a week or so, then by all means a full portable smithy would be technically if not historically possible, but the repairs that many in BM are wishing for with a portable smithy simply could not be done in the field in the timeframe that they want them to be done, and carrying one with you would slow an army down to the point of being unbearable to the players.


No offense to the wiki writer he has well founded arguments, but arguments while being that of an apprentice blacksmith in the 21 century as he stated making his testimony of a blacksmithing is as viable as a first year medical student of making a testimony on the consequential effects of asbestos in the lungs and it's long term enduring effects into the field of Oncology. And in his conclusion in this quote.
Quote
"minor repairs were often done in the field by smiths traveling with the army"


Makes the concept viable.

Further more respectfully I wish to add quote from sites as well.

Military College, Air Force University

Source: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/medieval_logistics.htm

Quote
Viewing military logistics of the Middle Ages by modern standards provides insight into today's Quartermaster functions. This study will compare some modern classes of supply - Class I (subsistence), Class II (clothing and individual equipment), Class III (petroleum, oils and lubricants), Class IV (construction materiel), Class V (ammunition), Class VI (personal demand items such as sundry packs), Class VII (major end items such as trucks and tanks), Class VIII (medical supplies) and Class IX (repair parts) - to the supply systems that dominated military campaigns in the Middle Ages, 1000 to 1400 AD. The logistical functions of manning, arming, fueling, fixing, sustaining and moving will overlay the comparisons.

Quote
Class IX parts were made and repairs performed by blacksmiths, leather workers and wood workers. Blacksmiths made such necessities as swords, arrowheads, lance tips, shield covers, metal armor and daggers. Many blacksmiths were employed in the general area of villages, castles and fortresses to allow the weapon orders to be easily filled. Blacksmiths traveled with the supply trains and were often employed by feudal lords or worked as "contractors" to paying customers.Their main purpose was to shoe horses, fix weapons and armor, and make items during sieges to supplement those lost or damaged.

Source: http://www.ehow.com/info_8338993_medieval-job-duties-blacksmiths.html

Quote
Blacksmiths were a common part of every military, responsible for outfitting an army as well as for the upkeep and repairs of weapons and armor after each battle. They were required to travel with a military during times of war and would find themselves stationed alongside militaries in castles or forts to service the equipment. Their noncombat value made them too valuable to risk during actual combat. However, they would have to grow accustomed to the harsh life of a soldier.


As you can see from the sources above there were many reason why a blacksmith would travel with an army and why they would travel with an army, sure they could repair "ALL" the damage but minor repairs he could take care of reducing perhaps 1-3% damage every turn as long as he was with and would charge you accordingly leaving you with a 40 gold bill within a week if your unit was large enough and warranted it.

Indirik

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #3: June 23, 2012, 03:51:39 PM »
You are correlating "army" with a unit of 20-50 men, or so. I would bet that every minor knight who lead 50 men into battle did not travel with his own portable forge. Perhaps this could be some form of army paraphernalia, if army paraphernalia or supply depots ever got implemented but I don't see it being added as paraphernalia for individual nobles.
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House Talratheon

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #4: June 23, 2012, 04:18:27 PM »
Which is why it was suggested as a probable expensive paraphernalia to have as it's charges could add up to alot, and while it would serve as a minimal repair tool on the field it would always be more viable to eventually bite your pride and go back to a friendly city and repair rather than sit on a field for a week+ and let him charge you consistently as he repairs for you at the rate of 1-3% damage daily, not to mention equipment damage of that amount occurs from travelling.

And while I would never expect a nobleman to drag a personal forge around, a black smith with an apprentice or two surely would for the payment opportunities.

Cren

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #5: June 23, 2012, 04:37:07 PM »
A portable blacksmith can be substituted with a caravan carrying new equipment. It would again bring back the caravan concept.
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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #6: June 23, 2012, 04:47:48 PM »
Perhaps this could be some form of army paraphernalia, if army paraphernalia or supply depots ever got implemented

Is this actually in the works at all? That would be awesome. You could have portable forges, camp followers, paymasters, sutlers...all paid for out of the army warchest. I like this idea.

LilWolf

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #7: June 23, 2012, 05:19:27 PM »
There was a write-up someone did on the wiki, probably under the wish list page, as to why a portable smithy was completely unrealistic.

And realism is still a shoddy excuse for denying something when talking about adding features to the game. It's partly the realism thinking that took the game into decline.

An paraphelia like this would be good even if it just meant you'd suffer 5% equipment damage in battle instead of 10% due to the smiths quick repairs before the equipment can suffer further. It doesn't need to be a "fix 20% equipment damage when ever you want to". Heck, if you've stayed in a region for a turn or two without moving maybe the smith would have time to make some extra repairs in the range of 1-5%.

Would something like that make the game better? I think so.
Is it realistic? Who honestly cares?
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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #8: June 23, 2012, 06:03:03 PM »
Why care so much about realism when the game isn't a medieval simulator? Do you think it is realistic that our foods arrive in our regions instantly? or our units marching faster than any normal human being can possibly march?

I hear that equipment damage was to balance the game but that also made people less inclined to attack realms far away from their realms, which made long distance wars happen less. This game is Battlemaster. GMs should try to implement things to help the game have more battles not less.

Indirik

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #9: June 23, 2012, 06:29:04 PM »
Is this actually in the works at all? That would be awesome. You could have portable forges, camp followers, paymasters, sutlers...all paid for out of the army warchest. I like this idea.
Some ideas have been tossed around, but no coding has been done, or will be done any time soon. But it will most likely not be anything like what you're thinking. We won't be adding camp followers, pay masters, or whatever sutlers are.
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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #10: June 23, 2012, 06:53:04 PM »
This has been rejected before, most of the reasons are posted on the wiki, but the whole discussion had quite a bit more content.

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #11: June 23, 2012, 11:34:51 PM »
The idea of equipment damage is intentional, which combined with only being able to recruit from the capital, getting taxes in bonds and unit morale dropping while away from home means that one cannot simply walk into Mordor... I mean, keep waging offensives forever. There is the need to refit.

The rate of equipment damage could be simply diminished, or to be a possibility to have equipment that damages slower, but would that really improve the game? I suppose that is the main question.
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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #12: June 24, 2012, 03:42:39 AM »
This has been rejected before, most of the reasons are posted on the wiki, but the whole discussion had quite a bit more content.

He quoted the wiki and explained his reasons why those reasons were completely unfounded. He is not advocating something to replace going to the city to refit. Merely something that will enable longer campaigns, increasing conflicts and making this game something more in line with its name.

Indirik

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #13: June 24, 2012, 04:00:10 AM »
Long-distance warfare isn't exactly something that the game promotes. You're not supposed to be able to march to the other end of the island, stay on station for three weeks, then march home. Nor should you be able to sit inside an enemy realm for a month or two without having to go home. That may be fun for the realm doing it, but it would totally suck for the realm being occupied. The need for the attacker to leave and refit is one of the things that lets the defender catch their breath and regroup.

We all want war. Yes, we know that's what the game is about. It's one of the things the devs keep telling the players when they ask for more ways to completely avoid warfare. But we don't not have war because we can't march across the island to fight someone on the opposite side. We have war because people are not willing to fight their neighbors. Why not? Isn't that why we have neighbors?

If you want something like this to support long-distance warfare, I would suggest starting a new thread on the general discussion board to discuss whether or not long-distance warfare would be good or bad for the game in general. If you can convince Tom that allowing realms to fight a cross-island war, then there is a greater chance of something like this being added to support it.
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House Talratheon

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Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #14: June 24, 2012, 04:22:12 AM »
He quoted the wiki and explained his reasons why those reasons were completely unfounded. He is not advocating something to replace going to the city to refit. Merely something that will enable longer campaigns, increasing conflicts and making this game something more in line with its name.

Exactly, and to press to point forward brought up by the developers

Quote
There was a write-up someone did on the wiki, probably under the wish list page, as to why a portable smithy was completely unrealistic.

Quote
Viewing military logistics of the Middle Ages by modern standards provides insight into today's Quartermaster functions. This study will compare some modern classes of supply - Class I (subsistence), Class II (clothing and individual equipment), Class III (petroleum, oils and lubricants), Class IV (construction materiel), Class V (ammunition), Class VI (personal demand items such as sundry packs), Class VII (major end items such as trucks and tanks), Class VIII (medical supplies) and Class IX (repair parts) - to the supply systems that dominated military campaigns in the Middle Ages, 1000 to 1400 AD. The logistical functions of manning, arming, fueling, fixing, sustaining and moving will overlay the comparisons.

Quote
Class IX parts were made and repairs performed by blacksmiths, leather workers and wood workers. Blacksmiths made such necessities as swords, arrowheads, lance tips, shield covers, metal armor and daggers. Many blacksmiths were employed in the general area of villages, castles and fortresses to allow the weapon orders to be easily filled. Blacksmiths traveled with the supply trains and were often employed by feudal lords or worked as "contractors" to paying customers.Their main purpose was to shoe horses, fix weapons and armor, and make items during sieges to supplement those lost or damaged.

Refuted.

Next developers point.

Quote
You are correlating "army" with a unit of 20-50 men, or so. I would bet that every minor knight who lead 50 men into battle did not travel with his own portable forge. Perhaps this could be some form of army paraphernalia, if army paraphernalia or supply depots ever got implemented but I don't see it being added as paraphernalia for individual nobles.

My point:

Quote
Blacksmiths traveled with the supply trains and were often employed by feudal lords or worked as "contractors" to paying customers.Their main purpose was to shoe horses, fix weapons and armor, and make items during sieges to supplement those lost or damaged.

Again, refuted.

As to the title of the game battlemaster, no one likes peace in fact war is a catalyst for activity it gives people something to rally for and press against others for. While many realms couldn't fight others realm for the simply fact they are too damn far this would give that concept a fighting chance, and expensive chance but a chance nevertheless.

Quote
Long-distance warfare isn't exactly something that the game promotes. You're not supposed to be able to march to the other end of the island, stay on station for three weeks, then march home. Nor should you be able to sit inside an enemy realm for a month or two without having to go home. That may be fun for the realm doing it, but it would totally suck for the realm being occupied. The need for the attacker to leave and refit is one of the things that lets the defender catch their breath and regroup.

Again this wouldn't promote long distance fighting just longer ability to hold a army in the field,

In battle master warfare you gain 1-3% equipment damage by simply marching, a battle can take it down 5% easily if you're marching through 3-5 regions your looking at 15% plus a battle equal 20% where as the black smith can only viably in the initial thread only repair up to 1-3% damage at most he'd be able to negate the marching damage but the army would have to return to the capital as damages become overwhelming as always.

As for giving a realm breathing time that is always able to be ignored via game mechanic such as switching out armies in rotations this only add a new elements to the war aspect of the game and allows armies to be fielded "slightly" longer.

As for the Gold sink possibilities that lord can use it for would be this.

  • Lords have to build it, it can only recruit so many smiths = $
  • Knights and unit commanding nobles have to recruit them = $
  • Units with them have to pay overhead fees, for them weekly = $
  • while they can't fully repair a unit it will force the unit to return to the capital for "full" repairs = $
  • It would give heed to the simple universal concept, wars cost money a rich realm could wage war all day where as a poor realm better start hording and fast.

Now even with this system a realm can't march across a continent to wage war on another realm having to cross 5 realms in the process simply due to the fact even with a smith by the time they got there they have gathered way more damage than the smith could fix making them still vulnerable to any attack. It would allow them to simply stay in the field and remain ballsy longer before having to go back for refits.

Quote
This has been rejected before, most of the reasons are posted on the wiki, but the whole discussion had quite a bit more content.

Reasons were given, and refuted by facts and the testimony of player who would find it a good aspect of battlemaster warfare.

The English marched all the way to Jerusalem in the middle ages, basically bordering the Asia continent in order to do this they cross the narrow, France, Germany, Italy, etc.. then finally figured out well we aren't supplied out here sign a treaty and go home. Point being for the history lesson is long distance wars are possible, holding out on them isn't this doesn't harm that truth it only extends it slight to our "fantasy game"