Author Topic: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia  (Read 9546 times)

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #15: June 24, 2012, 04:30:49 AM »
Again this wouldn't promote long distance fighting just longer ability to hold a army in the field,
Which equates to long-distance fighting. Whether or not *you* would use it for that, that's what it would be used for. Anything that allows you to stay in the field longer means that you can march farther with that longer time.

Quote
Now even with this system a realm can't march across a continent to wage war on another realm having to cross 5 realms in the process simply due to the fact even with a smith by the time they got there they have gathered way more damage than the smith could fix making them still vulnerable to any attack. It would allow them to simply stay in the field and remain ballsy longer before having to go back for refits.
Your argument isn't making sense to me here. You say that this won't let you march farther, because the damage it can repair is so limited. But if it can't repair damage from marching enough to let you march farther, then how can it repair damage from doing... anything else? Damage is damage. It's not like marching damage is different than sitting around damage, which is different than battle damage. So how does your system let you repair enough damage to stay in the field longer, but not let you repair enough damage to march farther?
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Charles

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #16: June 24, 2012, 05:01:19 AM »
I think the reasoning for and against mobile blacksmiths can be argued for ever without any side coming out on top.  The deciding point then is whether it would benefit the game.  It would be interesting, but I do not think it would add to the game.

House Talratheon

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #17: June 24, 2012, 05:04:52 AM »
Your argument isn't making sense to me here. You say that this won't let you march farther, because the damage it can repair is so limited. But if it can't repair damage from marching enough to let you march farther, then how can it repair damage from doing... anything else? Damage is damage. It's not like marching damage is different than sitting around damage, which is different than battle damage. So how does your system let you repair enough damage to stay in the field longer, but not let you repair enough damage to march farther?

It's simple military logistics, a marching army can sustain it self longer than one under constant battle and ties into simple mathematics.

Army A: takes on 1-3% damage marching through 5 regions per region considered they make through each region per turn.To make it to an enemy city before receiving any damages the man amount of damages would realistically tie into boots, horse shoes, saddles, and sandles and food supply (food is already drained if a army compasses the region.) the traveling blacksmith can only repair 1-3% as well now considering he's never going to be perfectly lucky the damages of the army has totaled up to 10% the black smith unable to repair a perfect 3% each turn only happen to make enough repairs to lower damage by 4% leaving the army still with 6% damages

Now you are left with another pickle, pay time you need to pay the blacksmith 20-40 gold.

Suddenly you're in battle and suffer 15-20% damage now at bare minimum you're looking at 21% damage, plus wounded.

At 21% damage you're still looking at the possibility of 1-3% damage on the return trip alone which could total up to 36% again at a lucky minimum lets say he consistently repairs 2% per turn at 5 turns upon returning that's 10% damage he repairs, you're still stuck with 26%.

UNLESS you decide to stay and man it out, then since you're at a city they enemy can easily refit and recruit and now you're facing another battle. 1-3% for hanging around (this is also considering you haven't put your men through training for the entire trip.) You're face with another 15-20% damage now elts say you play it smart and if you happen to win you forage the battle field and gain 2% repairs, the black smith during this one turn only repairs 2% lets look at the equation.

Current damage without returning: 35% plus the recent battle of luckily: 15%  through smart actions you only manage to repair 4%, that leave you with 46% now it's prolly time to go home and refit now.

Either way you have to return to the capital but if you manage to march long distance by the time for example across and continent you get there you'll be too tattered to be worth a fight. By the equation of 1-3% marching per turn across 10 regions minus the possible training aspect and considering you make it across each region per turn you're faced with 30% damage now running a random number generator on a d6 where 1-2=1, 3-4=2, and 5-6= 3,

Blacksmith repairs per turn
  • 1% Repaired
  • 3% Repaired
  • 2% repaired
  • 3% Repaired
  • 3% repaired
  • 1% repaired
  • 3% repaired
  • 1% repaired
  • 1% Repaired
  • 2% Repaired

Made it there with only 10% marching damage to answer for, now for battle 18% (randomized again)

current damage total 28%, stick around and it adds up.

See how it works?

mykavykos

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #18: June 24, 2012, 06:22:37 AM »
It helps, but it don't save you from the damage.
It looks fine to me.

But I think that it must have a higher weekly cost. Something around 100-150 gold. Maybe more.
Blacksmiths are expensive, this is the reason for not every unit have one with them.

Also they must be very rare so, if you loose one in battle, will not be so easy to hire another one.

Tom

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8228
    • View Profile
    • BattleMaster
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #19: June 24, 2012, 10:46:15 AM »
One, I don't see the original arguments refuted. I see counterarguments, but I don't see the argument resolved.

Two, game balance and design play a role.

Three, you are forgetting something important and that is incremental repairs. Right now the game keeps track of damage via one simple number. Even at the most restricted, someone could repair damage to his equipment at 1% every turn until it is fully repaired. Drawing in some arbitrary limit (say, can only repair down to x%) makes the least sense as especially those minor damages would be what a mobile smith could repair.
No, to make this possible, the game would have to keep track of damage in more refined ways. And since damage is used in many places, that is a major update to many code pieces. I don't see any positive effect on the game that even remotely justifies that amount of effort.


House Talratheon

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #20: June 24, 2012, 11:50:59 AM »
One, I don't see the original arguments refuted. I see counterarguments, but I don't see the argument resolved.

The wiki arguments are made by someone professed to be a blacksmith apprentice that alone by many standards of verification prime example being Justice systems of alot of countries save for Mexico go by. It's equivalent would be a 1 year student in forensic science testifying as a professional in the field of forensic science over gun shot trajectory and blood splatter in a murder where as a professional's opinion would hold more if not concrete merit.

Quote
And since damage is used in many places, that is a major update to many code pieces. I don't see any positive effect on the game that even remotely justifies that amount of effort.

As for that argument, I have no rebuttal if it's not worth the effort to do it then it's not worth the effort to do it end of story, thanks for hearing me out though, Tom.

Tom

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8228
    • View Profile
    • BattleMaster
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #21: June 24, 2012, 04:47:41 PM »
The wiki arguments are made by someone professed to be a blacksmith apprentice that alone by many standards of verification prime example being Justice systems of alot of countries save for Mexico go by. It's equivalent would be a 1 year student in forensic science testifying as a professional in the field of forensic science over gun shot trajectory and blood splatter in a murder where as a professional's opinion would hold more if not concrete merit.

Since credentials on the Internet are hard to check, I don't care very much for what someone claims to have and what others think of it. Anyone can claim anything, and I prefer to listen to the arguments on the topic instead.

Bedwyr

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1762
  • House Bedwyr
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #22: June 24, 2012, 06:41:31 PM »
How about something simpler that helps toward the same idea and doesn't introduce any new code: Requisition Smiths.

If you are in a region that has repair smithies, but you wouldn't normally be able to use them (say, you've just sacked an enemy city), you can send your troops out to round up the smiths and force them to work on your equipment.  There's a chance you can't find them, a chance your equipment gets sabotaged ("The equipment looks to be in good order, but after you return to camp and begin practicing it breaks in ways you never anticipated.  Equipment is now damaged by 5%"), and it burns two hours in addition to the normal repair times.  Essentially, it's a military way to accomplish the current use of family gold to buy favours.
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here!"

fodder

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #23: June 24, 2012, 06:54:04 PM »
... just make it a looting option?
firefox

Gustav Kuriga

  • Guest
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #24: June 24, 2012, 07:12:17 PM »
How about something simpler that helps toward the same idea and doesn't introduce any new code: Requisition Smiths.

If you are in a region that has repair smithies, but you wouldn't normally be able to use them (say, you've just sacked an enemy city), you can send your troops out to round up the smiths and force them to work on your equipment.  There's a chance you can't find them, a chance your equipment gets sabotaged ("The equipment looks to be in good order, but after you return to camp and begin practicing it breaks in ways you never anticipated.  Equipment is now damaged by 5%"), and it burns two hours in addition to the normal repair times.  Essentially, it's a military way to accomplish the current use of family gold to buy favours.

I like this idea

Bedwyr

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1762
  • House Bedwyr
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #25: June 24, 2012, 07:20:30 PM »
... just make it a looting option?

Yes, that's what I imagine this would be.  Sorry I hadn't made that clear.
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here!"

Tom

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8228
    • View Profile
    • BattleMaster
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #26: June 24, 2012, 08:27:07 PM »
A dead idea doesn't get any more alive by flogging it from various angles.

If there is a multitude of reasons listed why it's rejected, attacking one of them and ignoring the others simply won't fly.


Bendix

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #27: September 11, 2012, 07:27:35 PM »
It is common sense that any medieval army on the march would bring a few blacksmiths with them to maintain their equipment. Why not add a new paraphernalia type designed to make daily repairs to equipment? The coding would probably be pretty similar to healers, and it could make for some more interesting warfare, instead of the same old "March, Fight, Refit" grind that always develops.

You have healers to repair damaged troops.. why not have blacksmiths to repair damaged equipment?

Bendix

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #28: September 11, 2012, 07:29:14 PM »
Oh wait, now that I'm looking through this board I see this idea has already been proposed and rejected... never mind!

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: REJECTED: Blacksmith Paraphernalia
« Reply #29: September 11, 2012, 07:30:07 PM »
Please note also that if you wish to have a feature request considered, it must be formatted according to the rules in the appropriate stickied post.

Thank you.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan