Swastika Use

[BattleMaster Server]

Summary:	Swastika Use
Violation:	Preamble
World:	Dwilight
Complainer:	Lyman Stone
About:	Glaumring

Full Complaint Text:

   The relevant violated clause of the Social Contract is:
 
   "People from all over the world are participating in this game and its community. Limited communication and cultural differences require us to agree on a common etiquette and rules of behaviour."
 
   
 
   The player of Glaumring has chosen to repeatedly make gratuitous IC and OOC swastika references (and apparently jokes?) despite multiple OOC cautions and requests to stop from other players.

   

   Letter from Glaumring Apasurain   (53 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   Oh so now the mad king line is being bandied about by my allies. I appreciate that. I appreciate that my fury is mocked for my love of Terran, for my desire to fight with all my heart for Terran, to send my troops against old friends in Astroism, to fight one of my best friends Lady Allison Kabrinski. I sacrificed it all for Terran, Terran my old home. And this is what us given to Asylon? A snotty plate of spit for being annoyed that Terrans senate so callously turned against us. I consider Magistrate Vellos family. I allied eith D'Hara because of their fear of imminent attack by Kabrinskia. And this is what we get? An insult to your senate and all of everything we have dobe thrown to the dogs... I shall be like the fires of the sun and burn like a ball of terror in the sky, my blade a brandished pillar of pure insanity whirling like a swastika of death in the heavens! Who else wants to see an Asylonian naked and covered in bloodmoon spit flying down a hill at you eyes all rolling in their head with two cats tied by their tails wail ghosts! Waaargh!
 
   Glaumring Apasurain of Asylon
 
   Candidavius of Véinsørmoot and King of Asylon, Duke of Via, Earl of Via
 
   
 
   Letter from Glaumring Apasurain   (28 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   It is an ancient symbol of good luck for Asylonians. My body is adorned with hundreds of them, it stops arrows, cures cat bites, heals wounds and allows one man to drink huge barrals of wine without rest and each symbol means of how many women I have had and children they birthed. It is a fascinating Asylonian tradition!
 
   Glaumring Apasurain of Asylon
 
   Candidavius of Véinsørmoot and King of Asylon, Duke of Via, Earl of Via
 
   
 
   Out-of-Character from Brom Silverfire   (26 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   Okay, is that really an acceptable form of discussion for this game? While I understand the historical background behind the symbol in real life, it also has some very bad connotations which I am not sure are acceptable to be brought into the game.
 
   
 
   TH
 
   
 
   Out-of-Character from Brackern of Burgundy   (22 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   If he is making it all up, and it is a once off thing, I reckon it is fine (although liable to get reported for SMA, perhaps). If it is taken further and becomes part of the realm RP, then it deserves definite red card IMO.
 
   Mike H.
 
   
 
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   Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain   (17 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   Do you have any idea of the ancient history of a swastika? I lived in Asia for 14 years its everywhere there. Its a very very very old symbol. And has very little to do with nazis you can report me if you want because you guys are whiny little babies. Or go educate yourself about it.
 
   William Slyke
 
   
 
   Out-of-Character from Shino Uzamaki   (16 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   Technically, he is right. But, player of Glaumring, even if it is an ancient symbol, it is now forever tied to the Nazi's and you knew that going in.
 
   Forrest Hughes
 
   
 
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   Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain   (15 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
 
   William Slyke
 
   
 
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   Out-of-Character from Mathias Ridder   (14 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   It is not a matter of what it originally meant, but instead of what it has meant in recent history. It might not be offensive to all, but to those it does offend...
 
   John D.
 
   
 
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   Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain   (14 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   No its tied to the Navaho and to buddhists. I said its a goodluck symbol, you called it a nazi symbol. You are wrong. And now you are trying to cause ooc problems because you are lazy.
 
   William Slyke
 
   
 
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   Out-of-Character from Brackern of Burgundy   (13 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   LOL William - I'm not saying that I would report it - just saying that someone might. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go find my dummy...
 
   Mike H.
 
   
 
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   Out-of-Character from Terrence   (12 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   http://failbook.failblog.org/tag/swastika/
 
   Eoghan Barry
 
   
 
   Letter from Glaumring Apasurain   (11 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   Well in recent history its vern used for thousands of years on buddhist temples in Taiwan and China. The Naxi's have been gone since 1945 so get over it. Im a Canadian who lived in Asia for a decade. I could care less about its nazi past. I hate nazis.
 
   Glaumring Apasurain of Asylon
 
   Candidavius of Véinsørmoot and King of Asylon, Duke of Via, Earl of Via
 
   
 
     [reply to sender] | [reply to list] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [give medal:   ] | [vulgarity]
 
   
 
   Out-of-Character from Brom Silverfire   (9 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   Player of Glaumring,
 
   
 
   I explicitly stated that I was aware of the real life history surrounding the symbol. (aka the asian history)
 
   
 
   
 
   However, regardless of that history, the nazi's immortalized it as a symbol meaning something drastically different then peace. I would ask that you don't involve it in any RP's in the game, because I at least find it offensive and I believe others would as well.
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   TH
 
   
 
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   Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain   (7 minutes ago)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   I didnt use it as a nazi swastika though. So why are you offended, my swastika is swirly with dots and its pointing the other way.
 
   William Slyke
 
   
 
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   Out-of-Character from Brom Silverfire   (just in)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   I'm offended because this is a game that we play for fun, and you've brought into it a symbol which like it or not is representative of some of the worst organizational genocide and destruction of the last 100 years. Anything called a swastika or even described in a similar manner I would believe is unacceptable. Real life religions are barred from the game for obvious reasons, and I believe this should also be barred from the game for similar ones for the same reason that even close takes on real life religions are unacceptable.
 
   
 
   I've said all I'll say on the matter. Further OOC can be handled in private.
 
   TH
 
   
 
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   Roleplay from Glaumring Apasurain   (just in)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   Glaumring stood on the side of a mountain top in Uppervia and drew massive goodluck swastikas with charcoal on the side of the cliff facing his army. The swastikas were massive, swirling into eachother, they could be seen for miles, goodluck flowing from their ancient shapes. Glaumring then did a naked dance in front of the swastikas and a whole bunch of naked women covered in swastikas of blue, red and yellow painted all over their naked bodies danced with him. It was glorious and then Glaumring got drunk on bloodmoon fruit and passed out.
 
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   Out-of-Character from Gregor Dmitros   (just in)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   Please remember there are many people who play this game and some are very sensitive. While I have nothing against it's use, some others may, as someone has already pointed out. We all know that it goes beyond the Nazis and we all also know that it is associated with Nazis and their war crimes. It is wonderful that it doesn't offend you and some other people. But, that isn't the issue, it is about how it may offend other individuals playing this game. There is no need to call anyone a name, this is supposed to be a friendly OoC environment.
 
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   Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain   (just in)
 
   Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
 
   It is you guys who brought nazis into it.
 
   William Slyke
 
   

[Vellos]

I will note my contention here: while the player of Glaumring is correct that the swastika has many benign meanings, and perhaps he intends it that way, numerous players indicated they did not perceive it that way. Given its history as a symbol for the murder of, literally, millions of human beings, that sensitivity is justified (similar with complaints about the Saxon "Freikorps" in Barca). After multiple players indicated they found it offensive, the player of Glaumring made no apology, and indeed heightened his use of the offending symbol, clearly with provocative intent. This is absolutely not playing the game with friends, but rather is, at the mildest, trolling and spam, and, at the worst, anti-Semitism. While I could understand the first use of the symbol, its continuation is unacceptable, and the Magistrates should thus sanction the offender for a clear violation of the social contract and game community.

[Vellos]

Further posts:

Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain   (7 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good".
William Slyke

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Out-of-Character from Glaumring Apasurain   (5 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
In Christianity, the swastika is used as a hooked version of the Christian Cross, the symbol of Christ's victory over death. Some Christian churches built in the Romanesque and Gothic eras are decorated with swastikas, carrying over earlier Roman designs

Good luck with your complaint... Really.
William Slyke

Letter from Glaumring Apasurain   (just in)
Message sent to everyone in "Véinsørmoot" (50 recipients)
You cannot beat me in game so resort to OOC whining... So weak.
Glaumring Apasurain of Asylon
Candidavius of Véinsørmoot and King of Asylon, Duke of Via, Earl of Via

[Draco Tanos]

In a medieval setting, Glaumring is correct.  It was (and still is) used by many cultures as a symbol of good luck.  It's been found on ruins in India, Greece, and across the bulk of Europe at the very least. 

Nazis typically used a clockwise symbol, most other areas used a counter-clockwise version.  The Nazis also used a triskelion version of the swastika at times.  Should those be banned as well?

But then again, I'm one who believes that if it isn't cheating, players should grow a thicker skin.  It's the internet.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Yes, he implied at worst you were being Anti-Semitic. But he never called you a Nazi.

How was it anti-semetic to use an ancient goodluck symbol? I didnt mention any jewish stuff. You guys did. I didnt even acknowledge the Nazi's I ignored them. I acknowledged the swastikas rich ancient past. You guys turned it into a Nazi debate. You brought it up to cause trouble. You reported me to cause trouble. You fake your offense. You probably play Wolfenstein after this anyways. Or Medal of honor or watch some WWII movie do you cry every time you see a swastika? Do you call the cops when you see one scratched on a bathroom wall?

[Dante Silverfire]

How was it anti-semetic to use an ancient goodluck symbol? I didnt mention any jewish stuff. You guys did. I didnt even acknowledge the Nazi's I ignored them. I acknowledged the swastikas rich ancient past. You guys turned it into a Nazi debate. You brought it up to cause trouble. You reported me to cause trouble. You fake your offense. You probably play Wolfenstein after this anyways. Or Medal of honor or watch some WWII movie do you cry every time you see a swastika? Do you call the cops when you see one scratched on a bathroom wall?

The swastika is anti-semetic because those who have wielded it most recently in the past as their rallying symbol were anti-semetic. I don't know what attitude you think you can have here, but I dare you to walk up to any jew in real life, wave a swastika in their face and tell them you're not anti-semetic. Do you think they will believe you? Do you think they'll believe that you have no bad intentions when you tout a symbol that they are offended by even after they state their offense?

The blatant actions you've taken here in this game would have had you fired from any job that you held within the United States. No warnings involved either. I understand the ancient history of the symbol being one of peace. However, in modern day, that is not the only interpretation of it anymore.

Even disregarding what I would consider obvious knowledge that the symbol is related to hate, I would not be upset if you simply let the issue go once you were informed that some where offended by it. However, you didn't, you threw it my face and the others who agreed that the symbol was not appropriate. You continued with more blatant RP's and disregarded fair requests that you leave offensive issues out of the game. Based upon how this issue would be handled in real life, I would consider yourself lucky if you were not banned from the game for such actions.

[Ridder]

The fact of the matter is that you were asked to stop by some people who found it offensive and instead of stopping you made an unnecessary rp and posted to the very channel that was asking you stop. You blatantly disregarded the requests of others and instead sought to insult them.

[egamma]

I am going to be moderating this thread with extreme prejudice.

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,819.0.html

All replies need to follow these rules, or they will be moderated:

• remain strictly on topic. Information relevant to the actual case only. This goes especially for speculations, hypotheticals, variations - discussing of the this could be... if... kind are unwanted. We have a specific case before us and will decide that case, nothing else.
• be positive and friendly. Don't insult or troll.
• add new information. Repeating a point does not increase its truth value.

This means that posting "+1" will get your post deleted. Posting "lol" will get your post deleted. Personal attacks will be deleted.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I wasnt using it as a nazi roleplay though. I was using it in medieval context. Should a jew be offended if he went to Taiwan and saw temples covered in swastikas?

[egamma]

Harsh , anti-sematism. You are out of line. I will apologize to the players offended. Sorry, but now you owe me an apology for hinting that I am a Nazi.

If you want to open a case against another player, you are free to do so. Relevant material for that case, should you wish to make it official, is stored here:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,2705.0.html

[Draco Tanos]

The blatant actions you've taken here in this game would have had you fired from any job that you held within the United States. No warnings involved either. I understand the ancient history of the symbol being one of peace. However, in modern day, that is not the only interpretation of it anymore.

Which would potentially open said job up to a discrimination lawsuit, be it for race/culture/religion.  Unless it's a government job, then it could open them up to that AND a violation of the First Amendment lawsuit.

Even disregarding what I would consider obvious knowledge that the symbol is related to hate, I would not be upset if you simply let the issue go once you were informed that some where offended by it. However, you didn't, you threw it my face and the others who agreed that the symbol was not appropriate. You continued with more blatant RP's and disregarded fair requests that you leave offensive issues out of the game. Based upon how this issue would be handled in real life, I would consider yourself lucky if you were not banned from the game for such actions.

In "real life"?  In real life, nothing would happen here in the States.  People have a right to say whatever they damned well please so long as it doesn't incite violence, crime, etc.  Talking about the historical, and CURRENT, use of a symbol wouldn't result in...  Well...  Anything.

So its about favours and not facts? The judges must be neutral if to be truly just and not be clouded by emotion. They must be aware of the law and not merely pander to whoever favours them the most. My attitude has nothing to do with judgement.

Favor, not favors.  And yes.  Personal prejudices tend to color a person's judgement.  That does not mean they would not try otherwise, but sometimes human nature leaks in.

More on the subject at hand:  Should we have a Palestinian player that takes offense at the Star of David, this entire situation would be like throwing anything that is a star into that category.  Would you ban SA from Dwilight because they have "offensive" symbols?

No.  They are not the same type of star, even if there was a ban on the Star of David.  Just as the swastikas used by Glaumring are NOT the same type of swastika used by the Nazis (that being a right facing rotated swastika). 

Personally, I'm more offended by people trying to ban items of long standing historical and cultural value under the false pretense of "being offended".

[Ridder]

I don't believe anyone said your role play was a "nazi" one. I believe the main complaint or at least my complaint was that you made the rp out of disrespect for the thoughts and feelings of your fellow players. You were polity asked to stop with the swastikas, and instead of stopping you argued its historical meanings vs recent meanings, but on top of all that you then made a rp with the express purpose of insulting and offending those who asked you stop. These actions just show me that you don't respect the requests of your fellow players.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I apologize to My fellow players but will not apologize for swastikas.

I see where this is going though, because the complaint didnt hold water you will try to nail me for disrespecting players wishes.

[Dante Silverfire]

Personally, I'm more offended by people trying to ban items of long standing historical and cultural value under the false pretense of "being offended".

I don't appreciate being called a liar, saying that I'm simply making up my offense as a false pretense.

Which would potentially open said job up to a discrimination lawsuit, be it for race/culture/religion.  Unless it's a government job, then it could open them up to that AND a violation of the First Amendment lawsuit.

In "real life"?  In real life, nothing would happen here in the States.  People have a right to say whatever they damned well please so long as it doesn't incite violence, crime, etc.  Talking about the historical, and CURRENT, use of a symbol wouldn't result in...  Well...  Anything.

Actually it would not. Hate language is barred from being used and not protected under the first amendment when it is used in a manner that as you said promotes violence or hatred against a specific group. "Hate crimes" are one of the most severely prosecuted things in the states. If you harass a coworker or fellow people in whatever environment you are in, then you are not protected under any "rights" to do so.

When someone is offended by something such as this, which has a reasonable support for being offended, (such as the mass killings of millions of jews and others in which people may have family members who were killed in it, or perhaps survived it, or perhaps they even lived through it) then yes I would say it is reasonable to be offended in this case.

More on the subject at hand:  Should we have a Palestinian player that takes offense at the Star of David, this entire situation would be like throwing anything that is a star into that category.  Would you ban SA from Dwilight because they have "offensive" symbols?

No.  They are not the same type of star, even if there was a ban on the Star of David.  Just as the swastikas used by Glaumring are NOT the same type of swastika used by the Nazis (that being a right facing rotated swastika).

Your argument concerning the Star of David is irrelevant for two reasons: 1. We already bar the use of real life religions in the game, because it provokes discord and conflict. 2. The Star of David does not provoke nearly the same image to Palestinian players as the swastika would for jewish players. Palestine and Israel while having been at war for essentially ever, are in almost constant peace talks. Jews however would not seek peace with Nazis after what they did.

Overall though, the ban on real life religions is important because it separates what is felt in real life and what can be RP'ed in the game. I believe this same rule should be applied for an image which has very very recent hatred connotations such as the swastika. Beyond that even, provoking your fellow players and taunting them with offensive images after being asked to stop is just wrong. At the very least, try and discuss it with them in private first, before simply being aggressive with such brutish action.

That is something I do not think this game should tolerate, and it should not be dealt with lightly.

[Glaumring the Fox]

The swastika is not an offensive image though in the context I used. You made it offensive by changing the context.

Is the Beatles song 'Helter Skelter' evil because Manson used it in a murder?