What makes an SMA Religion?

[Indirik]

The topic of SMA religions has come up several times in the past couple years. Mostly in relation to whether or not one religion or another fits SMA. Rather than focus on that, I would like to know what people think is required for a religion to be considered SMA. Keep in mind the rule that eastern philosophical religions are not SMA, nor religions that are uniquely identified with non-European geographical regions.

In prior debates, I think I identified some characteristics that I considered essential.

1) There must be some divine/supernatural element that the religion worships. It doesn't specifically need to be called a god. You don't have to love it, or think it's the best thing since sliced bread and indoor plumbing. But you should worship it.

2) A desire to spread it's influence. This could be for love of your god, a desire to "save" your converts, or purely for personal power. It could be a forceful expansion, or a pacifist peaceful one.

There was a third thing, but I can't remember it right now, and don't have time to look.

[Draco Tanos]

Curious what number three is, since I know the CoH fits one and two.

[Norrel]

I'm a big fan of crusader-type religions, but Judaism never sought to expand in any way, and that is certainly a medieval European religion.

[Indirik]

Well, even if I can't remember what #3 was, I would still like to know what other people think makes an SMA religion. What should it have? What should it not have?

Can you have a "godless" religion?

Can you have an "anti-religion" dedicated to wiping out another specific religion?

Can you have a religion that worships a person, and not a god?

[Norrel]

Well, even if I can't remember what #3 was, I would still like to know what other people think makes an SMA religion. What should it have? What should it not have?

Can you have a "godless" religion?

Can you have an "anti-religion" dedicated to wiping out another specific religion?

Can you have a religion that worships a person, and not a god?

No

As long as there's some theology to go with the hatred, I see no reason why not.

Yes. Christianity already sort of does this, so it fits well.

[Indirik]

Christianity does not worship a person.

I'm talking about worshiping an actual human being, not the son of "cult of personality" kind of thing, maybe?

[Norrel]

Christianity does not worship a person.

I'm talking about worshiping an actual human being, not the son of "cult of personality" kind of thing, maybe?

Nobody knowingly worships a person, but I see no reason why they can't worship a human personification of god aka jebus

[Marlboro]

Didn't the Persians do that kinda thing?

[Indirik]

I suppose that the act of worshiping them kind of elevates them away from merely human, huh? I suppose having your ruler killed in battle could kind of cause a theological crisis.

[Vellos]

Christians do not believe they worship a "person" per se; or, rather, not merely a person. They worship a Trinity, who they regard as 3 persons/personalities, of one being; one of those 3 persons happens to be the Incarnation.

IMO, deified monarchs are not SMA. Christianity did not deify any monarchs during the Medieval period. Deification of leaders did occur in the Roman period, and arguably some absolutist monarchs may have been making a run for it, but deification of rulers just wasn't typical of any part of Medieval Europe. Really, I'm struggling to think of any instance after, say, 500 AD where a person was deified. The closest I can think of is declaring someone a Saint.

IMO, an anti-religion isn't okay. You can be against a religion. But founding a BM religion as an anti-religion is obviously metagaming. It's not an SMA issue, it's a "You're abusing the feature" issue.

[BardicNerd]

To be honest, for it to really be SMA, their should only be a single major religion in existence, and it should be a renamed version of Christianity.  A bit of Judaism and Islam can exist as minor religions (with the Islam copy being a major religion on another island), and scattered tiny pagan religions.  Anything else is a deviation from an actual medieval atmosphere. . . .

. . . but since we don't have that, nor do we really want that, I don't think it's specific details of religions that are important, nor the philosophy behind them, but if they are serious attempts at religion or spirituality (for a rather lose definition of religion), not completely out of place or immersion-breaking (again, lose definition here), and organic and alive.

I doubt anyone would deny they SA adds quite a bit to Dwilight (you may hate it, but you cannot deny it gives a great feel) and seems right.  But it is very arguably NOT strictly SMA.  It is not exactly an Eastern Philosophy religion, but it certainly has a lot in common with them . . . it believes in divine powers (the Bloodstars), but I would say it doesn't really worship them, at least not in a western sense.  It's a mix of western philosophy, eastern philosophy, and a little belief in divinity, but even though I doubt you'd ever be able to find anything like it in medieval Europe, it's Dwilight's most successful religion, and adds greatly to the atmosphere.

[Arundel]

IMO, an anti-religion isn't okay. You can be against a religion. But founding a BM religion as an anti-religion is obviously metagaming. It's not an SMA issue, it's a "You're abusing the feature" issue.

You should interpret "anti-religion" more as "replacement religion." One dedicated to destroying the other, yet ready to assume the power and functionality the former had. It may have a similar god/pantheon, beliefs, traditions, etc... This is perfectly SMA and obviously not metagaming.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I think he's more talking about the Aurvandil anti-religion thing they have going on there. It isn't formed as a religion, I don't think, but they are basically against any kind of religion.

[Anaris]

I thought he was talking more about the Manifest Path, which declared that there are, indeed, various supernatural entities, one or more of which may have created the world...and they're all out to get us, so we should try to get them first.

[Uzamaki]

To me, what makes an SMA religion...

Well, first of all it has to have something extraordinary it is worshipping, something so out of the normal it can be worshipped by a group of people. That could be gods, goddesses, demigods, spirits, supernatural happenings, or even stars the color of blood! 

Second, it has to have something that sets it apart. Beliefs/doctrine are usually that. Just 'We worship the bloodstars because they look cool' doesn't cut it. 'We worship the bloodstars because of blah blah blah blah blah'? Now that's more like it! 

Third, it has to be Battlemaster themed. Note how I didn't say Middle Ages themed. I know I hold a little bit different view than what is currently accepted, but if it's accepted as something that would fit into the Battlemaster atmosphere, but not necessarily similar to Christianity or the pagan religions in Europe, I don't mind so much so longer as it is properly described and clear cut. Star worship such as the Sanguis Astroist religion could be considered tribal in nature, but add a bunch of description and a clear cut doctrine(which is needed in my view anyways) and BAM! You have a SMA religion! 

To me, though, simply an 'anti-religion' religion wouldn't work. 'We live to counter (your least favorite religion name here) religion?' Just no. Now, if it is 'We had a god/goddess that constantly wars with THEIR god/goddess and whoever worships that god/goddess is evil'? Totally acceptable. And cool. Maybe we can get some bloodmoons out there against the bloodstars! 

Anyways, that's my three things on what a religion needs to be SMA. It doesn't need to want to spread it's religion, it could just stay in a single city and make that the holy city of all holy cities. Nor does it need to be European like. Just well described enough so that those of us who grew up in the Western world can understand.