Fake religions

[Solari]

I'd like to hear thoughts on religions that aren't really religions, but shells to keep religions out of realms, or more like guilds (ab)using the benefits that accrue to religions. I'll submit Exhibit A for consideration:

The Path Of Chivalry
The first organization of Oritolon, we are not what you might call a true religion.
The Path of Chivalry offers protection from enemy religions while supporting the chivalrous beliefs of loyalty, honor and trustworthiness.

The rank of the path goes as follows:

Elder Ranks:
the Almighty Cleatus: The current supreme leader of the path. Chief patron.(Equivalent to the Grandmaster of the Knights Templar.)
Exemplar of Chivalry: Senior rank in the path.

Honorary Ranks:
Honorary Member: Wise men and women that well are known for their lifelong contribution to the greater good of the realm and the path. True believer and upholder the code of Chivalry and Honor. They are real life example of all the teaching of Chivalry. Their achievements and fame are the greatest sources of inspiration to fellow follower of the path.
Role Model: New upcoming example of inspiration in the path. They are dedicating their life to promote the code of Chivalry and Honor. Although they have not yet achieved the achievements of honorary member, but they are certainly on their way to do so. One day they might become a honorary member.

Patron Ranks:
Chivalrous Paladin: Have demonstrated that they are able to uphold the value of Chivalry and made substantial financial contribution. Highest paying rank, require 50golds to advance to this rank.
Stranger of Chivalry: Inspired by Honorary Members and Role Models Already making advancement in rank of the path. They are learning the code of Chivalry and Honor. 25golds contribution to advance to this rank.

Follower: Entry rank, Just ordinary follower. Rank open to all noble. Free to join. Contact the elders if your finances are tight.

The welcome sign to the temples immediately states that it's not really a religion, but a State-run shell and protection racket. When I contacted a few people IC about it, I was told that you essentially have to bribe your way up the organization. While I admire the ruthless pragmatism on display in this religion, I have to wonder if it isn't so blatantly contrary to what was intended when religion was introduced that it borders on abuse.

Are there any other examples like this?

[JPierreD]

Borders on abuse? Only if on the abuse-side of the border.

[Anaris]

Any religion that states that it is not a religion is, without any doubt, an abuse of the system, in the same way that, for a time, any non-Order message that stated "This is an order" would get you lightning bolted.

Any religion that rejects the existence of gods, spirits, or any other supernatural influence on the material world is also an abuse.

I'd say that any religion that fundamentally advocates supporting one particular realm or group of realms—not because they follow the religion, but simply because they are who they are—is probably abusive, too. (And note that "fundamentally advocates" is different from "has a policy of supporting." Just because a religion supports a particular realm doesn't mean it falls under this category, but if it's part of the actual tenets of "belief" that the religion preaches, then it does.)

[Tom]

The real question is how to police this, if we want to police it at all.

I mean, they could just as easily fake an official motto and just hide the non-religion part.

[Anaris]

The real question is how to police this, if we want to police it at all.

I mean, they could just as easily fake an official motto and just hide the non-religion part.

Well, first off, I'd say we should come down like a ton of bricks on the ones dumb enough to openly state that they're not a religion.

Second of all, they may be able to hide their non-religion-ness from outsiders, but it should quickly become apparent to anyone who joins that there's really no substance there, and they're just there to prop up the realm.

I am firmly in favour of accepting Magistrate reports of this kind, and investigating the religion—wiki page, boards, in-game messages and all—to see if there's any apparent actual belief system being advocated, or if it really is just "we support Keplerstan and keep out nasty foreign religions!"

It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to rise above those criteria, I think. Indeed, it would be very easy to create a religion that I, personally, would say should be destroyed and never spoken of again for being so stupid, but which has at least this modicum of work put into it.

[egamma]

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1828.0.html

Funny how nobody cared when I first mentioned it 6 months ago.

[Sonya]

Thoughts:

What is the potential of this to be abused IG?

According to game mechanic, is still a religion if is founded like a religion (even if have another name and people use it to RP other thing) and to get people's sympathy they have to preach, and to preach they must be priest, and if they are priest they believe in something.

The real power of a religion is the ability to influence population and gain their sympathy, they cant do it if they do not believe in something, maybe is not something that other religions believe in (like a deity, supreme divinity, etc.) but they should believe.

Maybe in other hand, they don't know about guilds, because as far i have seen on OP's quote their message looks like from a guild.


Peace.

[Solari]

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1828.0.html

Funny how nobody cared when I first mentioned it 6 months ago.

Didn't see it then, or I would've been similarly tweaked. Sorry. 

[Solari]

Thoughts:

What is the potential of this to be abused IG?

The potential lies in the exclusion of other, legitimate attempts to create substantiative religions IG. It's also worth noting that the only illegal act in the realm is founding a religion. Even looting is circumstantial, while magic and spell-casting are explicitly allowed.

According to game mechanic, is still a religion if is founded like a religion (even if have another name and people use it to RP other thing) and to get people's sympathy they have to preach, and to preach they must be priest, and if they are priest they believe in something.

The mechanics of a religion are all predicated on the idea that the religion adheres to the rules Tom laid out for them, which is that they actually function as religions. The Path of Chivalry has no divinity, no higher order, and no real congregation of the faithful. There are actual guilds and secret societies on other continents that do exactly what this religion purports to do. That's why we have guilds and societies—to champion these kinds of "beliefs".

[Blue Star]

Perhaps they do not believe in a divine higher power or deity. Perhaps they say they are not a true religion but they are still a religion.

What I am getting at is. They never said they weren't a religion they simply said they are not a true religion which can imply they are not a general religion that believes in a divine power, etc. Perhaps these people believe in (God forbid haha) themselves and do not therefore believe in a divine entities.

Names is what gets me they seem like a Templar order or some such things. I don't see a priest umm rank so leaves one to speculate. Religion is the guild and the guild is the religion?

[Solari]

Perhaps they do not believe in a divine higher power or deity. Perhaps they say they are not a true religion but they are still a religion.

What I am getting at is. They never said they weren't a religion they simply said they are not a true religion which can imply they are not a general religion that believes in a divine power, etc. Perhaps these people believe in (God forbid haha) themselves and do not therefore believe in a divine entities.

Names is what gets me they seem like a Templar order or some such things. I don't see a priest umm rank so leaves one to speculate. Religion is the guild and the guild is the religion?

That's the problem. Religions are required to meet basic criteria. Worship of the divine is pretty basic. Maybe that needs to be stated more forcefully on the page where one founds a religion.

[Tom]

I am firmly in favour of accepting Magistrate reports of this kind,

It is not a magistrate case. Does not violate any IRs or the Social Contract.

[Geronus]

IMO the community should police these things themselves, IC. Oritolon's enemies ought to be putting that religion out front and center and using it as an excuse to build an alliance against the godless pagans and their secular blasphemies. Assuming that works, how hard do you think Oritolon would fight to save a religion that it is clear no one cares about in the least?

[feyeleanor]

IMO the community should police these things themselves, IC. Oritolon's enemies ought to be putting that religion out front and center and using it as an excuse to build an alliance against the godless pagans and their secular blasphemies. Assuming that works, how hard do you think Oritolon would fight to save a religion that it is clear no one cares about in the least?

It wouldn't work in the Colonies. The status quo is too well established, and those who've tried to challenge it IC have all spectacularly failed. We're about to have another round of that with a general campaign to destroy Shadowism - a faith which is strongly RP-ed like those of Alowca and Alebad were.

[Geronus]

It wouldn't work in the Colonies. The status quo is too well established, and those who've tried to challenge it IC have all spectacularly failed. We're about to have another round of that with a general campaign to destroy Shadowism - a faith which is strongly RP-ed like those of Alowca and Alebad were.

Persevere and keep trying. Keep beating that drum and eventually you may make some progress.