Clan from Fontan/Aurvandil now in Armonia

[deHauteville]

Why were we banned from Nivemus? For being in Aurvandil, literally only that.

Just to try and expose the kind of nonsense we were forced to deal with - I was accused of clanning with another character for having a recruitment centre called the "de Hauteville Principes", Principes being a type of heavy Infantry, and also the designated name for the recruitment centre back when it was in Fontan (I merely put my name in front of it) but Principe was also the family name of another character in Aurvandil. Yes, this was the level of stupidity we were faced with in Nivemus. For the accusation of "always protesting", well the first time I "protested" was when I quite calmly said to the Kronogos we shouldn't be living of hand outs from Sirion, which is fair enough, how can a realm have dignity if it lives of another realms welfare? The next time I actually protested, I again calmly complained at the various members of the government being ridiculously belligerent and rude to a certain group of nobles, mainly the only nobles who ever talked who weren't them, asking them to show more decorum. This isn't counting the few debates we had over clanning, were several players quite concisely disproved their accusations, not that that meant anything.

I guess they also said I/we (The we only became apparently after they banned a group of players, before that I had no clue who "we" were) never contributed or followed orders, aside from the fact my character followed several recent orders, and couldn't previously due to being a lord, and was completely following orders before that. Other characters were accused of not contributing, but then several of those characters were the most active monster in the north/borders of Sirion at the time, with some of them still in regions fighting monsters when they were banned.

The only clan in Nivemus, was the ruling class, who became convinced that anyone with a connection to about five different realms were trying to take over Nivemus, and from that point absolutely refused to believe anything else whatsoever, no matter what evidence you gave them. Even as a new player with none of those connections I was forced to put up with this crap since the moment I arrived, as one of my characters joined Aurvandil later on from Astrum. They banned me/us/ for no reason whatsoever other than they fought we were plotting (again, for as little "evidence" as the naming of my recruitment centre, or maybe two of "us" agreeing in an debate) and I mean, no matter what you said, did or proved was enough to stop this torrent of what can only be considered baseless preconceptions against you.

But to get on topic to an Aurvandilan Clan in Armonia, well this is just the saxon panic again isn't it? Apparently in Westmoor, Nivemus, Fontan, Aurvandil and now Armonia. If you find more than one player with a character in Aurvandil, they're obviously plotting to steal your titles or gold to expand the great empire of the High Sovereign.

[Blue Star]

Their may be some truth in what he/she has to say. I mean we all are tired of this Saxon or w/e thing going on and are accusing a lot of people it seems. However, you'd think that these Saxon's whoever they are would get the point...

I for one think it's fishy how they move as one, first a few then a few more then well yeah enough to rebel or take up seats in council. However, the realm my chars reside in have no such problem so it is above me to think much and to agree with others that something seems wrong. If I were in any realm saxon were suspected being in I would myself conduct my own witch hunt.

[Geronus]

Is there evidence of abusive behavior? If not, I can't really see what it is you would want us to do here. This is my current impression, please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Armonia and Eponllyn are at war.

2. A player from Eponllyn has opened a Magistrate case against a group of players in Armonia.

3. Apart from the presence of this group of players, there does not seem to be a specific complaint regarding their actions, behavior, or anything that might reasonably be classified as an abuse.

Are all of the above points correct?

[Bendix]

But to get on topic to an Aurvandilan Clan in Armonia, well this is just the saxon panic again isn't it? Apparently in Westmoor, Nivemus, Fontan, Aurvandil and now Armonia. If you find more than one player with a character in Aurvandil, they're obviously plotting to steal your titles or gold to expand the great empire of the High Sovereign.

We're not discussing whether or not there was a clan in Aurvandil. The magistrates found evidence of clan activity in Aurvandil and Fontan, made their decision, and we need to respect that ruling. The evidence they found was based on financial transactions, not an RC name. If you have a grievance about a magistrate decision you need to talk to Tom about it, because we can't do anything to help you.

There are 5 characters in Armonia with ties to Aurvandil. One of them was deported for clan activity in the past. It will be a simple enough matter for a GM to run their financials to check for similar activities.

[Geronus]

We're not discussing whether or not there was a clan in Aurvandil. The magistrates found evidence of clan activity in Aurvandil and Fontan, made their decision, and we need to respect that ruling. The evidence they found was based on financial transactions, not an RC name. If you have a grievance about a magistrate decision you need to talk to Tom about it, because we can't do anything to help you.

There are 5 characters in Armonia with ties to Aurvandil. One of them was deported for clan activity in the past. It will be a simple enough matter for a GM to run their financials to check for similar activities.

But why would we do so?

[Bendix]

If there is Saxon or Saxon-like clan activity, it would indicate that those involved are not taking the court decision seriously. And if there isn't clan activity, then an investigation will allay the concerns of those who think there is.

Believe me, I want to win the war agains't Eponllyn as much as anyone, but I don't want that victory tainted by unproven accusations of clanning. Therefore, we should get proof (of guilt OR innocence) BEFORE it becomes a problem, not after.

It's entirely possible that it's just a group of former Aurvandilans that just want to play in the same realm together- they haven't done anything OVERTLY clan-like. Either way it would do everyone a favor to make sure.

[Geronus]

If there is Saxon or Saxon-like clan activity, it would indicate that those involved are not taking the court decision seriously. And if there isn't clan activity, then an investigation will allay the concerns of those who think there is.

Believe me, I want to win the war agains't Eponllyn as much as anyone, but I don't want that victory tainted by unproven accusations of clanning. Therefore, we should get proof (of guilt OR innocence) BEFORE it becomes a problem, not after.

It's entirely possible that it's just a group of former Aurvandilans that just want to play in the same realm together- they haven't done anything OVERTLY clan-like. Either way it would do everyone a favor to make sure.

And what exactly do you think we would turn up if we investigated? It seems to me that the player who opened the case has no basis for accusing these players of violating the Social Contract other than their family histories. Even you, who play in the same realm with them, admit they've done nothing overt, in other words nothing that you can detect. Like the recently opened case against Aurvandil, this strikes me as a bit of witch hunt...

[Indirik]

2. A player from Eponllyn has opened a Magistrate case against a group of players in Armonia.

Just to be anal, the player that opened the case has two characters in Perdan, and none in Eponllyn.

[Draco Tanos]

Is there evidence of abusive behavior? If not, I can't really see what it is you would want us to do here. This is my current impression, please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Armonia and Eponllyn are at war.

True.

2. A player from Eponllyn has opened a Magistrate case against a group of players in Armonia.

False.  A player from PERDAN, which is not involved in the war, filed the complaint.

3. Apart from the presence of this group of players, there does not seem to be a specific complaint regarding their actions, behavior, or anything that might reasonably be classified as an abuse.

Are all of the above points correct?

As an outsider, the complainer is concerned as he knows what the "Saxons" can do.  He's seen it, he's fought it.  What he can specifically protest against is therefore limited due to lack of a first hand account.  The point is likely to get the Magistrates/Staff to investigate.

[Bendix]

I'm not on either "side" here- this is as much for the accused as it is for the accuser. If we can prove that they are not a clan, they won't have these accusations following them around for the rest of their BM careers.

I don't know... I'm just trying to be thorough. I'm not sure what happened in Fontan/Aurvandil, but it sounds like it was pretty bad for everyone. I'd like to be able to put it to rest as soon as possible.

[Geronus]

Just to be anal, the player that opened the case has two characters in Perdan, and none in Eponllyn.

I was making an assumption based on how the case was worded. I couldn't be sure, not having a character on EC anymore. Thanks for clarifying.

[Geronus]

As an outsider, the complainer is concerned as he knows what the "Saxons" can do.  He's seen it, he's fought it.  What he can specifically protest against is therefore limited due to lack of a first hand account.  The point is likely to get the Magistrates/Staff to investigate.

But is there any reasonable cause for us to do so other than the circumstances of them being together in one place? I mean, we could get involved every single time any of these players show up anywhere in a group, but doesn't that seem excessive? They've done nothing to justify suspicion in this case other than show up together in one place as far as I can tell.

[Blue Star]

I think Geronus has a clear point. Nothing they have done so far warrants clan activity that is worth being investigated. We might as well leave them alone and keep a sharp eye out just in case. I mean if it does develop into some OCC clan thing then well were all just gonna look back and say I told you so.

What if we made a OCC clan to fight their OCC clan! would that even the odds? Call it Tom's Templar's (too complicated for me)

[Zakilevo]

But is there any reasonable cause for us to do so other than the circumstances of them being together in one place? I mean, we could get involved every single time any of these players show up anywhere in a group, but doesn't that seem excessive? They've done nothing to justify suspicion in this case other than show up together in one place as far as I can tell.

Every time they show up in the same place together, they complain and cause trouble, contribute barely anything for the realm :p.

Though I think it is unfair for new players who started in Aurvandil first...

[Uzamaki]

Why were we banned from Nivemus? For being in Aurvandil, literally only that.

Just to try and expose the kind of nonsense we were forced to deal with - I was accused of clanning with another character for having a recruitment centre called the "de Hauteville Principes", Principes being a type of heavy Infantry, and also the designated name for the recruitment centre back when it was in Fontan (I merely put my name in front of it) but Principe was also the family name of another character in Aurvandil. Yes, this was the level of stupidity we were faced with in Nivemus. For the accusation of "always protesting", well the first time I "protested" was when I quite calmly said to the Kronogos we shouldn't be living of hand outs from Sirion, which is fair enough, how can a realm have dignity if it lives of another realms welfare? The next time I actually protested, I again calmly complained at the various members of the government being ridiculously belligerent and rude to a certain group of nobles, mainly the only nobles who ever talked who weren't them, asking them to show more decorum. This isn't counting the few debates we had over clanning, were several players quite concisely disproved their accusations, not that that meant anything.

I guess they also said I/we (The we only became apparently after they banned a group of players, before that I had no clue who "we" were) never contributed or followed orders, aside from the fact my character followed several recent orders, and couldn't previously due to being a lord, and was completely following orders before that. Other characters were accused of not contributing, but then several of those characters were the most active monster in the north/borders of Sirion at the time, with some of them still in regions fighting monsters when they were banned.

The only clan in Nivemus, was the ruling class, who became convinced that anyone with a connection to about five different realms were trying to take over Nivemus, and from that point absolutely refused to believe anything else whatsoever, no matter what evidence you gave them. Even as a new player with none of those connections I was forced to put up with this crap since the moment I arrived, as one of my characters joined Aurvandil later on from Astrum. They banned me/us/ for no reason whatsoever other than they fought we were plotting (again, for as little "evidence" as the naming of my recruitment centre, or maybe two of "us" agreeing in an debate) and I mean, no matter what you said, did or proved was enough to stop this torrent of what can only be considered baseless preconceptions against you.

But to get on topic to an Aurvandilan Clan in Armonia, well this is just the saxon panic again isn't it? Apparently in Westmoor, Nivemus, Fontan, Aurvandil and now Armonia. If you find more than one player with a character in Aurvandil, they're obviously plotting to steal your titles or gold to expand the great empire of the High Sovereign.

That is complete and utter bull!@#$. I banned all of you with valid IC reasons. I have no idea what is happening in Armonia/Eponllyn 'Saxon' wise, but I stand on firm ground for my IC bans.

Yes, I admit, I freaked out when I saw nearly a dozen Aurvandil characters always arguing against the government whenever they had even the slightest foothold. And I will also agree that that contributed to the whole de Hauteville Principes thing. Whatever. Neither of those reasons were why you were banned though.

All of you were extremely disrespectful to those holding government positions, especially me(I was formerly Judge) and the General. They protested against me, literally, for clarifying that the General was talking about a specific woman and not the entire female race when he sent a message to one of our nobles who said that it wasn't a convenient situation to move out(after we had been in the capital for two weeks, paralyzed by realm-wide apathy, not just 'Saxon' apathy). One of them continually called the general a cur. Another one of them continually sent spiteful messages in the realm advisory council whenever something bad happened in the army(which due to the division/lack of contribution was quite often). A couple even went so far as to say that they had sworn allegiance to another noble in the realm(not the King). All of the others continually rallied around the anti-government bloc, or started their own spats here and there. Did these people all happen to have Aurvandil characters? Yes. Do I, OOC, think that may have had something to do with them working together? Maybe. But these were IC bans for IC reasons. Even if it is 'unfair' or 'unjustified'(which I think it was both fair and justified), that is not a reason to overturn the bans.  Why? Because the Middle Ages were a time period full of unfair circumstances and unjustified punishments. It specifically says in the 'I just got banned' page in the manual of the wiki that 'maybe you did something bad or he's just unfair. So what? BattleMaster is a huge place, there's a lot of opportunities out there. Leave and go someplace else where you are more appreciated.' If he would like to play in another realm, have at it! I hope you have success there and can find a government you do not constantly fight against.

Also, saying that I myself am in a clan with 'the ruling class' is just laughable. Outside Nivemus, we have no other characters in the same realm. None. Which is a hell of a lot more than the people banned could say. Besides, if 10 characters in Nivemus have ties to a 60 noble realm in Dwilight, I don't think there is much chance in that. 'Oh it just happened?' Give me a break. 'Oh, we play together, but not for power?' Then explain the often ridiculous arguments we had with the sole reason behind them being to debase the government. And another thing about that, this 'ruling class' clan, I am not even Judge anymore! The current Judge was elected and has chosen to keep the bans, not lift them. In fact, I have not heard a word from him saying that he wants to lift the bans.

I will say it again, I have no idea what is happening in Armonia. But all of the bans in Nivemus were within my characters rights as Judge IG.

EDIT: It should also be pointed out that none of the families in this current case were banned from Nivemus, so there are no ties or relation to the families banned from Nivemus and this case.