Author Topic: Fake religion  (Read 18596 times)

Geronus

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #30: July 11, 2012, 10:41:20 PM »
Probably. Game mechanics trump RP. What the game mechanics say is what happens. Period. If you use a game mechanic and then say something like "Ignore the game mechanics, that's not what we're doing", then you are doing something wrong.

* Declaring war and then saying "It's not really a war, we just have to do this because we need to be at War status to do something"
* Sending a message tagged as Orders, and then saying "This isn't an order"
* Sending a message not tagged as Orders, and then saying "This is an order"

Does starting a religion, then saying it is not a religion count as well? Do you need to specifically declare that you're not a religion for it to count? Or can you just create a religion that is completely devoid of content, has no gods, etc., and have that count?

Thing is, if this is even stated anywhere at all (and I do not see it on the Rules and Policies Wiki page), it seems like more of a policy. The Magistrates are for adjudicating violations of the the IRs and the Social Contract. As Tom said, I don't believe that this falls into either category unless you want to argue that it's either a bug exploit or a Fair Play issue. IMO either one would be a stretch.

If Tom feels that this kind of thing should be officially proscribed, it is up to him to make or clarify the rule and determine who would enforce it. Otherwise, I think this is something that needs to be handled by the community, IG.

Anaris

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #31: July 11, 2012, 10:51:46 PM »
Thing is, if this is even stated anywhere at all (and I do not see it on the Rules and Policies Wiki page), it seems like more of a policy. The Magistrates are for adjudicating violations of the the IRs and the Social Contract. As Tom said, I don't believe that this falls into either category unless you want to argue that it's either a bug exploit or a Fair Play issue. IMO either one would be a stretch.

If Tom feels that this kind of thing should be officially proscribed, it is up to him to make or clarify the rule and determine who would enforce it. Otherwise, I think this is something that needs to be handled by the community, IG.

That's a nice sentiment, but based on what feyeleanor has been saying, people have been trying to do exactly that for years without success.

The problem with "you have to handle that sort of thing IG" is that the type of people who are willing to bend the rules like this tend to be the type of people who are also willing to min/max and, well, bend the rules in other ways, just to get ahead.

And when a realm that's already more powerful than the others around it takes a measure like this to "protect" itself from foreign religions, you have a recipe for a middle finger to the notion of RP and in-game common sense that just gets to sit there and show how useless those ideas are when they are left to the players to enforce for everything short of a blatant violation of the IR or Social Contract.

Although personally, I think it falls squarely under the "fair play" clause of the Social Contract, like many similar "well, nothing says I can't do it, so screw you" issues.
Timothy Collett

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Tom

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #32: July 11, 2012, 11:24:41 PM »
I suppose you could try to use the "If the only reason your doing something is game mechanics, you're probably doing it wrong" philosophy with this. If the only reason you're forming your "it's-not-a-religion" religion is to keep real religion from coming into your realm, then the only reason you're doing it is game mechanics.

Perhaps some parallel could be drawn to declaring war on another realm, and then sending message saying "We're not really at war with them, we just needed to declare war to take this region. But really, we're still friends."

I like the thinking behind this and we could even make a new rule out of this.

Basically, I think it is time for a rule that says "if you do things in-game, mean them the way you do them.". Which means if you duel then it's a duel and not a training match. If you challenge someone for a death duel, you really want one party to die. If you create a religion, it must be a religion, and if you declare war you really want to bash in some heads.

I think the "do what you mean" rule would be easier to understand than a "don't do things purely for game-mechanics" one, while meaning pretty much the same thing.

Geronus

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #33: July 11, 2012, 11:28:41 PM »
That's a nice sentiment, but based on what feyeleanor has been saying, people have been trying to do exactly that for years without success.

The problem with "you have to handle that sort of thing IG" is that the type of people who are willing to bend the rules like this tend to be the type of people who are also willing to min/max and, well, bend the rules in other ways, just to get ahead.

And when a realm that's already more powerful than the others around it takes a measure like this to "protect" itself from foreign religions, you have a recipe for a middle finger to the notion of RP and in-game common sense that just gets to sit there and show how useless those ideas are when they are left to the players to enforce for everything short of a blatant violation of the IR or Social Contract.

Although personally, I think it falls squarely under the "fair play" clause of the Social Contract, like many similar "well, nothing says I can't do it, so screw you" issues.

As far as Fair Play goes, here is what I think: This is an example of a mechanic being used in a way other than that intended by the designers. Unfortunately, the reason that's the case is because there isn't sufficient RP to paper over the actual reason for the religion's existence. What bothers me about calling this a Fair Play issue is that the sole element separating this example from any other moribund state religion in the game is that those who control it haven't put in the effort to develop a veneer of RP, not even a rudimentary one, which isn't a mechanical issue at all. So what's not fair about it? That these players are getting away with being lazy? That they're clearly cynical and uninterested in meaningful RP? That they're not using religion as intended? IMO this is not an issue of fairness, it is a culture problem.

Geronus

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #34: July 11, 2012, 11:34:01 PM »
That's a nice sentiment, but based on what feyeleanor has been saying, people have been trying to do exactly that for years without success.

The problem with "you have to handle that sort of thing IG" is that the type of people who are willing to bend the rules like this tend to be the type of people who are also willing to min/max and, well, bend the rules in other ways, just to get ahead.

And when a realm that's already more powerful than the others around it takes a measure like this to "protect" itself from foreign religions, you have a recipe for a middle finger to the notion of RP and in-game common sense that just gets to sit there and show how useless those ideas are when they are left to the players to enforce for everything short of a blatant violation of the IR or Social Contract.

Although personally, I think it falls squarely under the "fair play" clause of the Social Contract, like many similar "well, nothing says I can't do it, so screw you" issues.

I think the frustration you are suggesting that you feel regarding the ability of the community to self-police is a bigger issue.  The Magistrates have a specific role, which we should try to adhere to. Taking on cases too far outside of our mandate is a Pandora's Box and will only encourage people to open more cases that have little or nothing to do with the IRs or the Social Contract and put us in a pretty serious gray area where we become a sort of vehicle to bring about Battlemaster The Way It Should Be™.

If Tom sees something that he feels should be covered by a rule, he can make new ones. Clearly that's not off the table considering his last post  :) If he proceeds, then this case would have merit under the new rule, though I'm not sure how we would enforce a ruling against the religion. What exactly would they have to do to come into compliance? Reimagine the religion as an actual religion? Or tear it all down and start over?

Anaris

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #35: July 11, 2012, 11:43:22 PM »
I like the thinking behind this and we could even make a new rule out of this.

Basically, I think it is time for a rule that says "if you do things in-game, mean them the way you do them.". Which means if you duel then it's a duel and not a training match. If you challenge someone for a death duel, you really want one party to die. If you create a religion, it must be a religion, and if you declare war you really want to bash in some heads.

I think the "do what you mean" rule would be easier to understand than a "don't do things purely for game-mechanics" one, while meaning pretty much the same thing.

There we go.

That's exactly what I was trying to articulate with the "nothing says I can't so screw you" bit.

This is precisely the kind of rule BattleMaster needs. It will definitely need more judgement than many of the rules, and probably cause some complaining and flamewars (but then, what rule doesn't?), but I think it's absolutely the right way to go.
Timothy Collett

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Vellos

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #36: July 12, 2012, 01:57:11 AM »
I like the thinking behind this and we could even make a new rule out of this.

Basically, I think it is time for a rule that says "if you do things in-game, mean them the way you do them.". Which means if you duel then it's a duel and not a training match. If you challenge someone for a death duel, you really want one party to die. If you create a religion, it must be a religion, and if you declare war you really want to bash in some heads.

I think the "do what you mean" rule would be easier to understand than a "don't do things purely for game-mechanics" one, while meaning pretty much the same thing.

Sounds reasonable.

Should the Magistrates apply such a rule right now, to this case? Do you want us to be the enforcers?
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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #37: July 12, 2012, 11:41:16 AM »
I brought up the original complaint, and even I don't think that applying a rule retroactively is fair. Perhaps the player of Cleatus Maggot could be persuaded to move the offensive phrase.

Solari created a new religion, which I intend to join. If it's good, then we can maybe just get rid of the bad one through IC means.


feyeleanor

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #38: July 12, 2012, 01:22:54 PM »
That would be the best outcome, especially if it injects some fresh life into the Colonies.

Ketchum

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #39: July 12, 2012, 05:14:43 PM »
I brought up the original complaint, and even I don't think that applying a rule retroactively is fair. Perhaps the player of Cleatus Maggot could be persuaded to move the offensive phrase.

Solari created a new religion, which I intend to join. If it's good, then we can maybe just get rid of the bad one through IC means.
Good one, my character May may want to join in too. She is too tired of waiting for Cleatus to die of old age IC :P
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feyeleanor

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #40: July 12, 2012, 06:15:44 PM »
Good one, my character May may want to join in too. She is too tired of waiting for Cleatus to die of old age IC :P

I was hoping she'd come north and join Shadowism ;)

Solari

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #41: July 12, 2012, 06:52:36 PM »
I realize how it might look that I was in the process of starting a new religion as this case came up, but all I can do is give me complete assurances that there were no ulterior motives. I had to do some research into the Path of Chivalry, obviously, during work on my own religion (with a shout out to Indirik for the inspiration and material), when it was also suggested that I bring this case forward for clarification.

egamma

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #42: July 12, 2012, 07:01:17 PM »
I realize how it might look that I was in the process of starting a new religion as this case came up, but all I can do is give me complete assurances that there were no ulterior motives. I had to do some research into the Path of Chivalry, obviously, during work on my own religion (with a shout out to Indirik for the inspiration and material), when it was also suggested that I bring this case forward for clarification.

It looked to me like you were anticipating a void and trying to provide a replacement, not using OOC methods to take out the competition.

Ketchum

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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #43: July 19, 2012, 03:33:19 AM »
Additional information worth reading and considering.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Oritolon_(Realm)

Religion
The state religion of Oritolon is "The Path of Chivalry", often simply referred to as "The Path". This is not a traditional theistic religion but more a philosophy that encourages the virtues of strength, justice, honour and unity. The Path also aims to encourage benign worship of gods and to discourage conflict between faiths. The temples and shrines of The Path are shared by worshippers of many faiths who are free to worship as they please so long as their worship does not have an adverse affect on others.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Path_of_Chivalry

Founded in Oritolon during The Long War against the theocracies of Alowca and Alebad as a response to the increased influence of these realms' aggressive and punitive religions The Path of Chivalry is a religion that promotes the noble virtues of truth, honour and justice and encourages freedom of worship for all faiths while fighting against the abuse of faith for personal or political gain.

The Path is not a theocratic religion so much as a philosophy based on the ideal of nobility of spirit.

Followers are free to worship whoever and however they wish, on the condition that such worship does not have a negative impact on others, though the use of faith to coerce, suppress, intimidate or control others is vehemently prohibited. The preaching of the virtues of truth, honour and justice are actively encouraged and faiths which proclaim an antipathy to those virtues is not likely to gain any favour from those who follow The Path. As most faiths at least claim to aspire to these virtues few worshippers are excluded from the shelter and protection that The Path provides.

Temples of 'The Path' are usually groups of buildings or other structures where followers are free to gather to celebrate whichever faith they belong to. The diverse needs of the many faiths that make use of these temples is catered for assiduously by priests of The Path.

The tenants of The Path require that all worship should be held in it's temples in order to promote tolerance and exchange of ideas and so that it's priests can ensure that the faithful, of whatever gods, are not abused by those they follow.

Though the name and the philosophy of The Path of Chivalry was first proposed by Baroness Erisha Da Hadez during discussions on founding a state religion in Oritolon, The Path of Chivalry was officially founded by a priest of the realm.
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Re: Fake religion
« Reply #44: July 28, 2012, 06:04:51 AM »
Tom has said before he doesn't like philosophy based religions in SMA

This is precisely the kind of rule BattleMaster needs. It will definitely need more judgement than many of the rules, and probably cause some complaining and flamewars (but then, what rule doesn't?), but I think it's absolutely the right way to go.

Its a terrible rule and just further sacrifices roleplay for mechanics. There simply isn't enough and never will be enough buttons to make that rule not damage rp