Author Topic: Academy Usefulness  (Read 12099 times)

songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #15: April 03, 2011, 01:59:25 PM »
What is the skill that is desired is the main question when trying to train at an academy. The recommendations that follow reflect the status of a knight with a moderate income (50-100 gold/week). This is not for characters rolling in gold because they can just train everything at the academy without worry, usually.

It is generally not worth it to train the following at an academy: Bureaucracy, Oratory, Trading, Leadership, Adventuring.

The main reason for this is that those skills can be increased, usually at more reliable rates, with much less cost. Bureaucracy is easy, just sit in a region and keep doing Survey Administration all the time. Boring, but you'll get to 100% in a few months easily, and no gold spent if you just sat there alone.

Oratory, same deal as bureaucracy. Either preach as a priest all the time, or keep praising/badmouthing/maintaining/degrading all the time in your capital.

Trading is better done through doing actual trades, as that sometimes nets you slightly more profits by selling exotic goods (hidden normally until you sell).

Leadership is somewhat slow on the field, unless you are battling almost every turn, and that carries with it the risk of wounds. For maximum rate of leadership gain one might look into ranged units set to minimum retreat and at a deployment level that would not typically engage in close combat.

Adventuring is only for adventurers. Also, it can't be trained at an academy anyway.

Now for the 50-50 skills, where it's not so clear whether to use academy or field training: Infiltration, Swordfighting, Jousting.

Infiltration is one of the harder choices because on one hand, training can get expensive, and one isn't making any use out of that infiltration skill by just sitting in class. On the other hand, almost every infiltrator action carries the risk of being wounded (possibly every), and every action carries the risk of capture. That means a potential 7-day loss in any skill gain, and a potential 1-day loss at the very least. At low infiltration levels, this risk is significant, so perhaps training with the normal tutor 4 hours a day every turn might work, or 6 hours every turn with normal with two 6 hours every 4th turn. Once about 40% is gained, then maybe go to a rogue region or some region other than one's own, and start messing around.

Swordfighting can be gained, albeit quite slowly on the field by leading infantry, special forces, and I think by repelling infiltrator attacks and duels. The latter two are highly risky and are definitely not recommended methods of field training. The battling method also carries risk of wounds, but much less than the other methods. It is also slow. However, swordfighting is quite useful to repel attacks, but generally getting a high equipment 100% cohesion unit is much more reliable and cost-effective for keeping infiltrators away. One can also train it at a tournament, which is not very reliable, but free. However, this is highly unpredictable as a training method, as there is no "schedule" for tournaments.

Some people go the adventurer approach, where they create adventurers to become ennobled. However, before pursuing this method, keep in mind a few things. First, adventurers can get wounded and even die. This makes the risk of losing all the investment greater than for a normal noble. Also, the wounds are more frequent, and all adventurers start at age 20. While the age 17 start for some nobles, with 5% to all skills might sound bad, those extra three game years can easily translate to a greater than 50% gain in at least one skill. Also, due to the frequent wounds and serious wounds, adventurers will generally age much faster than a 20 year old noble who started at the same time. With the requirements to become a noble, by the time an adventurer actually reaches a high level of swordfighting, say, 100%, he/she might be over 35, in which case it becomes considerably harder (it would already have been hard enough anyway) to maintain anything above 80%. So this becomes a question of how quickly one thinks the adventurer can advance, and how well (meaning minimal wounding, no death, obviously, minimal aging).

Now, onto jousting. This is almost completely useless except for tournaments. This can be gained only in three ways: Academy, tournament, and fielding cavalry. The cavalry one may be as costly than the academy at the early stages. It also is slower, unless perhaps one charges into battle every turn. Nevertheless, this is useful only for tournaments, and while jousting is less common in high levels than swordfighting at tournaments, by the time one actually wins any tournaments that include jousting, the reward gold might not offset the training money. As for tournament jousting training, see the swordfighting recommendation about tournament training. One might gain some skill, but don't expect anything big.

And finally for skills one should only train at an academy, I have none. Maybe jousting if one can't or doesn't want to field cavalry.

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #16: April 03, 2011, 02:19:36 PM »
My counter-point could be: if any sensible thing in game can be reached with support of large sums of money only, how many players/chars has any fun in game!?

My chars were only decently funded, and they reached 60% after at most 6 months to a year or playing.  Personally I think 60% is not that low, since all I did was train when the army was not moving, and go to as many tournaments as I can.  One of the char did win a tournament at around 65%, so I'd say that's fun.

There are many other aspects to a character than just his or her skills.  I cannot agree with "any sensible thing" requires "large sums of money".  There are privileges and benefits that can only be attained by large amount of money, just like any other game.  Is it true that unless everyone has all of the privileges and benefits that exists in the game they cannot have fun?  Those without these large amounts of money should be content to train regularly, maybe once every week, and not expect massive advancement instantly for doing so.  If you want skills fast and the ability to train constantly with ample gold, try becoming a lord or duke first, and even then I doubt many would appreciate a char who just sits in a city spending tax gold training skills every day.

BTW, in these 4-5 days after original post, I made at least 5-6 more attempts (with different chars), and not a single one was successful.

What were their base skills in what you trained?  What level of tutor did you train with?  How many hours did you try for each attempt?  Please record down these things next time you train at the academy.  Thank you.
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Telrunya

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #17: April 03, 2011, 02:23:58 PM »
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That means a potential 7-day loss in any skill gain

I believe the main loss as Infiltrator is the Ban you get on your head. Means one less enemy you can sabotage in without the danger of deportation or execution. You used to train up till you went invisible (No longer happens), but getting a certain Infiltration skill trained at the Academy allows you to do the safer Infiltration options without all too much danger in quiet regions (Burning food etc.), allowing you to train much easier and safer.

Velax

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #18: April 03, 2011, 02:31:52 PM »
Perhaps it has changed recently, but my infiltrator found it impossible to get any Infiltration gain from actually using the skill. He committed dozens of minor acts of sabotage against enemy realms (signs, burning warehouses, etc) at a low skill level, but not once did he ever get a skill increase.

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #19: April 03, 2011, 02:36:27 PM »
I've always found it is faster to increase skills by using them once I hit about 50%. After that the cost to increase them in the academy is too great for me. The counter to your point, in most cases high skill levels have very little effect on game balance. I've never felt the need to spend large amounts of time training skills to make a contribution at all.

I'm really not sure what is wrong with your training though. I've had spells of getting no results for a few days, but never weeks or months.


Gaining skills through practice is clearly stated in game as much more effective option than academy. In that respect, most of purpose related to academy I see in acquiring some skills that I have no option to practice for whatever reason.

Currently, most of my attempts are tied to skills of about 20%, but it does not work.

I also remember that  such "spell" did not exist before. Several months ago I noticed that no single training ever proves useful, and it is two months since I am tracking it in details. :-[

Telrunya

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #20: April 03, 2011, 02:36:37 PM »
Did you train at the Academy afterwards to get an indication of your skill?

Bael

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #21: April 03, 2011, 02:42:03 PM »
It is generally not worth it to train the following at an academy: ... Adventuring.
As an aside, one cannot train adventuring at an academy.

A speculation on maintaining skills: if you are trying level swordsmanship, would each battle leading infantry give you practice and stop it from degrading? This is the viewpoint I tend to hold, because if you are able to improve your skill from a battle, you should also be practicing it at the same time.

A second speculation: would only killing militia and assassinating nobles maintain sword skill for an infiltrator while in the field? This is assuming that they are not near a friendly academy and do not command a unit.

songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #22: April 03, 2011, 03:07:32 PM »
Yeah, I guess my recommendations were pretty long...

Here's the section where I talk about why one would not want to train Adventuring at academy:

Adventuring is only for adventurers. Also, it can't be trained at an academy anyway.

Seventh paragraph, in case anyone wanted to know for reference.

It is my understanding that having none of those "You have improved your swordfighting/jousting/leadership skill!" in battles does nothing to the skill. There are also skills that don't give the "You have gained X!"

Anaris

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #23: April 03, 2011, 05:51:18 PM »
Perhaps it has changed recently, but my infiltrator found it impossible to get any Infiltration gain from actually using the skill. He committed dozens of minor acts of sabotage against enemy realms (signs, burning warehouses, etc) at a low skill level, but not once did he ever get a skill increase.

Where have you been trying it?

Infiltrating against your own realm, you get no experience. Ever. You have to go against an enemy to get full experience from it.
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Bael

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #24: April 03, 2011, 07:13:43 PM »
Yeah, I guess my recommendations were pretty long...

Here's the section where I talk about why one would not want to train Adventuring at academy:

Adventuring is only for adventurers. Also, it can't be trained at an academy anyway.

Seventh paragraph, in case anyone wanted to know for reference.

Ah, my apologies. I read some sections and skimmed others.

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #25: April 03, 2011, 09:39:04 PM »
My counter-point could be: if any sensible thing in game can be reached with support of large sums of money only, how many players/chars has any fun in game!?

"any" fun in game? So the fact that academy training is expensive means you can't have any fun in the game at all? Having played the game for over five years, only one of my characters has ever done any real academy training, and that was in the last six months. Personally, I had a lot fo fun playing the game without academy training.

Quote
If you are sitting in academy for weeks, maybe months, doing absolutely nothing but waiting for more time/funds/opportunity to train more, just in order to make any difference, I would say there is no any flavour and fun in such game. If I would spend say 3 RL months just in training, excluded for any other in-game activity, just to make +15% gain in skills, I would not feel any pleasure, remembering all boredom and passivity that preceded that achievement.

If you think a particular style of play is boring, then don't do that.

Also, "3 RL months just in training, excluded for any other in-game activity, just to make +15% gain in skills" is flat out wrong. I can practically guarantee that if you spent three straight months doing nothing other than academy training, you would get well over 15% skills, unless you were the unluckiest person in the entire world.

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Let us say, in peaceful times, my chars have one or two occasions in a week to train 8-12 hours or so. If I have 4 chars and practice it for many months, never gaining any useful training; I must feel something is wrong.

Extremely unlikely. With four, six hour sessions a week, for four months, you will gain training.

Quote
BTW, in these 4-5 days after original post, I made at least 5-6 more attempts (with different chars), and not a single one was successful.

Give us full details. Your skill level, number and length of sessions, trainer level used. Also, when reporting this stuff, only report for one character. If you spread the training over 4 characters, then only 1/4th of the data you're providing is useful.
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De-Legro

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #26: April 04, 2011, 12:33:22 AM »
Perhaps it has changed recently, but my infiltrator found it impossible to get any Infiltration gain from actually using the skill. He committed dozens of minor acts of sabotage against enemy realms (signs, burning warehouses, etc) at a low skill level, but not once did he ever get a skill increase.

I trained up to 30% as a infil. After that my only source of training was actual infiltrator actions, usually simple things like sabotage production or burning a warehouse. I managed to get up to 60% doing this over the course of a year.
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ó Broin

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #27: April 04, 2011, 02:34:01 AM »
As a new character on a modest knights income, I generally expect to gain maybe 5% skill for a weeks worth of training.

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #28: April 07, 2011, 02:35:42 AM »
Where have you been trying it?

Infiltrating against your own realm, you get no experience. Ever. You have to go against an enemy to get full experience from it.

It was against an enemy realm. This was a couple of years ago, though, so perhaps it's changed. I remember it being very annoying at the time, though.

De-Legro

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Re: Academy Usefulness
« Reply #29: April 07, 2011, 02:36:53 AM »
Where you checking the skill gain? I've never seen a message about infil skill improvements from performing actions, but checking in at the academy I can see the improvements.
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