Derailed thread

[Vellos]

Hm. Actually, I think I may have been misreading you, at least partially. It was about the "I haven't suffered enough to understand such hatreds" thing, which I inferred to mean hating a group for the actions of some of its members.

Ah, okay.

YEah, I generally don't really endorse any hatreds; that's what I was trying to say. I was just also noting that though I can't endorse them, I try to be careful in condemning them too easily; I try (though often fail) to not simply ideologize my own privilege. So for example: Israelis and Palestinians. Many of them hate each other. They'd probably be better off not hating each other. I cannot endorse that hatred. At the same time, I don't feel it is acceptable for me to judge either side too harshly for their hatreds, given the long history both sides have suffered. Which isn't an extremely productive moral position, I know.

[Anaris]

Ah, okay.

YEah, I generally don't really endorse any hatreds; that's what I was trying to say. I was just also noting that though I can't endorse them, I try to be careful in condemning them too easily; I try (though often fail) to not simply ideologize my own privilege. So for example: Israelis and Palestinians. Many of them hate each other. They'd probably be better off not hating each other. I cannot endorse that hatred. At the same time, I don't feel it is acceptable for me to judge either side too harshly for their hatreds, given the long history both sides have suffered. Which isn't an extremely productive moral position, I know.

Hm. My position is more along the lines of:

Hatred is unhealthy. Always. That doesn't mean it's always the most unhealthy option, and sometimes it can be...almost necessary, at least for the psyche.

However, hating one person for something another person has done is never right. If bad things have been done to you, or your loved ones, hate the ones who actually did the bad things. Not the people who just happen, through birth, culture, or social affiliation, to be associated with them.

It's sometimes understandable to hate beyond those who actually caused the hate—sometimes what's been done is so terrible, there's too much hate for it to fit in one target, and it spills over. That doesn't make it right.

[Vellos]

Hm. My position is more along the lines of:

Hatred is unhealthy. Always. That doesn't mean it's always the most unhealthy option, and sometimes it can be...almost necessary, at least for the psyche.

However, hating one person for something another person has done is never right. If bad things have been done to you, or your loved ones, hate the ones who actually did the bad things. Not the people who just happen, through birth, culture, or social affiliation, to be associated with them.

It's sometimes understandable to hate beyond those who actually caused the hate—sometimes what's been done is so terrible, there's too much hate for it to fit in one target, and it spills over. That doesn't make it right.

I would agree. I just don't want my words to bite me in the ass when something terrible is done to me or mine.

Though I do actually recognize some limited form of collective guilt. I think it's fair to hold me responsible for the actions of my church, or my political party, or my nation: I would hope that the hater gives me a chance to explain, and it may be that though I am responsible I have worked to discharge that responsibility, but I don't see anything necessarily wrong or foolish in, say, an Iraqi being pissed at me because I'm an American.

[Jim]

Though I do actually recognize some limited form of collective guilt. I think it's fair to hold me responsible for the actions of my church, or my political party, or my nation: I would hope that the hater gives me a chance to explain, and it may be that though I am responsible I have worked to discharge that responsibility, but I don't see anything necessarily wrong or foolish in, say, an Iraqi being pissed at me because I'm an American.

That's how more Americans should think, considering how many of our tax dollars went into the war in Iraq, we share responsibility because we supported it with our taxes. A society that thinks things through carefully is less likely to piss in other peoples' Cheerios, at least I would hope so. I feel like less of the world would hate us as people if we thought that way, but then again I understand to a point why so many hate us, because many of us see nothing wrong in the actions of our country.

Haters gonna hate.

[Ehndras]

I CANNOT BE THE ONLY ONE .

LOOOOL

That's why one should not type long TLDR;s at night!

[Ehndras]

DAMN!

I was talking about my beliefs in a philosophical sense, not my applied beliefs. :-P I have my personal, internal beliefs and then I have my real-world applied beliefs that go into play with others.

For example, I somehow manage to hate yet love every Human being on Earth for vastly different reasons, and its the balance of my complex beliefs that dictate my behavior toward others.

I might support certain ideals philosophically/internally but I know damn well I would not want them applied because I do NOT have faith that our governments/People are competent enough to really determine who's worthy of what.

I DO believe in the death penalty, but it should only be for people who, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, committed heinous serial-crimes. Supposedly kill 1-2 people? Rot. Mass-murder? Burn/Hang/Inject/Die, because keeping you alive is just allowing you to laugh at those who you destroyed.

A mass murderer/rapist/cannibal/Etc will not 'rot' in prison. He'll replay his murders and rapes to himself and get his jollies off knowing they're dead and he's not.

If you believe in God, send the !@#$er off to be Judged as he deserves. If you don't, banish the piece of filth to the void of nothingness so that at least in death his flesh shall have been of some use to the soil.

[Anaris]

I DO believe in the death penalty, but it should only be for people who, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, committed heinous serial-crimes. Supposedly kill 1-2 people? Rot. Mass-murder? Burn/Hang/Inject/Die, because keeping you alive is just allowing you to laugh at those who you destroyed.

Personally, I only believe the death penalty is warranted in cases where someone is likely to either commit further crimes from within prison, or escape prison to commit further crimes. But then, I'm a pragmatist at heart, and punishment for the sake of punishment or vengeance really has no place in that. It's only useful if it accomplishes some worthwhile goal in the wider world.

[Penchant]

Personally, I only believe the death penalty is warranted in cases where someone is likely to either commit further crimes from within prison, or escape prison to commit further crimes. But then, I'm a pragmatist at heart, and punishment for the sake of punishment or vengeance really has no place in that. It's only useful if it accomplishes some worthwhile goal in the wider world.

The issue with any criminal who is violent for psychopathic reasons, as in like anyone who does this, looks like this, etc of them killing/harming for no personal vendetta against the person but other reasons that cause them to dislike the person might have that reason come up while in prison and hurt/kill other prisoners.

Short version:If they are in prison for life, what reason do they have to not do bad things in prison? They are already in prison with no hopes of getting out so what else can you do to them but death, which might not be that important to them since they have to rot away in prison, anyways.

[Ehndras]

I'm also pragmatic, but my biggest concern is resources.

Why waste valuable resources on someone who contributes nothing to civilization for the sake of some arbitrary form of psychological punishment? All we're really doing is draining our own pockets to keep 'em alive. Me, I'd rather bury them and move onto the next problem than worry about containment, security, food, logistics, etc.

American justice and prison systems are an absolute joke - we have more prisoners than any other country in the world.

[Perth]

Why waste valuable resources on someone who contributes nothing to civilization for the sake of some arbitrary form of psychological punishment? All we're really doing is draining our own pockets to keep 'em alive. Me, I'd rather bury them and move onto the next problem than worry about containment, security, food, logistics, etc.

How in any way is it arbitrary?

And I would say expending government resources to imprison those truly deserving to be there is not a waste... it's exactly one of those things government is there for.

American justice and prison systems are an absolute joke - we have more prisoners than any other country in the world.

Prison system is a problem, but this is not because of the types of violent/psycho individuals we have been discussing. This is largely due to the "War on Drugs" and the criminalization of what would probably be more appropriately handled in many cases as a health and/or psychological problem.

[Ehndras]

Meh, the "War on Drugs" is a whole other bad joke.

Urgh, don't even get me started on the American medical system. I've met enough biochemists (they're common around here due to local industry, the region used to be all factories and chemical plants - which explains why the ground is seriously polluted... How they managed to get clearance to build in some of these places simply amazes me.) to know the FDA is a corrupt morass of financial exploitation based upon the suffering of those unfortunate enough to require medicine and treatment - not to mention all the flawed and ineffectual garbage they sling that serve only to perpetuate an endless cycle of gradual self-destruction at the hands of costly treatments that do little less than cause a whole new slew of side-effects. The simple truth is, curing you isn't profitable - treating you is.

As my friend John and I were discussing this weekend (researcher at Bristol-Myers Squibb), the state of modern dependency on flawed medicine is a disgrace. Rather than cure an illness in 7 easy steps we create treatments - accompanied by a slew of experimental drugs - never truly eliminating disease in order to maximize long-term profits. Its something everyone in the industry knows yet is powerless to stand against because those who speak out lose their jobs and those who stand against it lose their funding. When faced with the choice between having a job and doing what's right, everyone chooses to keep working.

The supposed "War on Drugs" is a joke when our own government is perpetuating a cycle of domestic drug-dependency on the basis of monetary gain. I mean, hell, its bloody genius - I'll give 'em that. Its so simple and quite logical. Why cure diseases? Why stop death and suffering at all if you can profit on the natural (or artificial...) degradation of human life? There is no end to the people out there. People get sick and they die - boo-hoo. Treatment creates a long-term system that guarantees profitability, not to mention ensuring productive stability by virtue of adversity. If you're unhealthy you need drugs to keep working to make enough money to treat your conditions because without treatment you're even worse off, but the amount of money spent on treatment tends to limit your income enough that it becomes a sole driving factor behind what I'd like to call medical enslavement. I know plenty of people who are stuck paying tens to an astonishing hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills because of any number of health issues. They are in a perpetual state of debt and sickness that simply cannot end, ensuring they continue to work and pour money into the medical system despite receiving little tangible result.

You've just got to love the love of money - it really drives a stake into the heart of respect for the human race.

[D'Espana]

Got to give you that, Ehndras. It's not usual that I find someone who I can agree with in this sort of issues.

[Ehndras]

D'espana, I've unfortunately had plenty of experience with the American (and Brazilian) medical systems. My father went through experimental drug treatment in the 90s when he was dying from lung cancer, after undergoing treatment due to exposure to Agent Orange/Etc during Vietnam, and so forth. Mother has a slew of diseases and I grew up having to drag her to the hospital 3-4 times a week. Not counting my own birth defect and health issues.

I've spent most of my life in hospitals, doctors, and clinics and I'm truly saddened by the general state of our medical system.

Screw health insurance reforms, what we need is to rework the medical system, not do the equivalent of bailing it out by authorizing all sorts of health insurance projects that'll just throw government money at a corrupt system.

That's all the government seems to do these days.

"Hey, the People are complaining this isn't working well. Do you know how to fix it? No? Anyone have any ideas? !@#$. Maybe if we throw money at the problem, it'll fix itself..."

...Right... Like it worked with banking, big business, the real estate market, and the EU? >_>

[Vellos]

I'm also pragmatic, but my biggest concern is resources.

Why waste valuable resources on someone who contributes nothing to civilization for the sake of some arbitrary form of psychological punishment? All we're really doing is draining our own pockets to keep 'em alive. Me, I'd rather bury them and move onto the next problem than worry about containment, security, food, logistics, etc.

American justice and prison systems are an absolute joke - we have more prisoners than any other country in the world.

In the US at least, the death penalty is often costlier than life imprisonment, as you have to pay for all those pesky appeals.

And about the War on Drugs... all you damn hippies need to quit smokin' weed and get jobs already!

*wanders off grumbling about kids these days*

[Ehndras]

I seriously doubt its more expensive than 3 meals a day, boarding, security systems, guards, injuries, and extreme stress for all involved for anywhere between 15 to 50 years.

Meh, the Justice system is just as flawed. The whole system itself is full of holes. I wish it wasn't true but unfortunately it is.

*shrug*