Werewolf Forum Game, General Discussion

[Barek (jerm)]

Advanced vs Basic

There's merit to both Basic Werewolf (Villagers, Seer, Guardian Angel, Werewolves), and Advanced Werewolf (all of the above, plus Sorcerers, funky traits, multiple packs, etc)

If these games continue to be popular and people want to run them, perhaps we can try to keep a Basic game going and an Advanced game going.

[Ross]

I could host one of them, giving the chance to someone else.

[Norrel]

I'd also be willing to host, though the role setup would be more advanced that everything else we've done so far.

[Barek (jerm)]

I propose that we maintain no more than 2 games at any time.

I also propose that at the conclusion of a game, people throw in their lot to host the next game, and folks can decide who's next in that fashion.

[Indirik]

I would really like to see one of these with a "no PM" rule for the villager side. IMO, PMing really impacts the game in a negative way.

[Barek (jerm)]

I would really like to see one of these with a "no PM" rule for the villager side. IMO, PMing really impacts the game in a negative way.

While I disagree, Velax has suggested running just such a game, and I'd even be game for giving it a shot.

[Penchant]

I would really like to see one of these with a "no PM" rule for the villager side. IMO, PMing really impacts the game in a negative way.

What has it done negatively? I am not saying its not bad,  but I would like to hear what is bad about it in your opinion.

[Norrel]

What has it done negatively? I am not saying its not bad,  but I would like to hear what is bad about it in your opinion.

It's less interesting since much less is said in public and it also impacts the game's strategies in ways that are more about using logic to find the scum rather than finding tells and using psychology.

[Barek (jerm)]

I wholeheartedly agree that the more that is done in public the better.

I agree that there has been a pretty good deal of PM traffic in the Assassins game.  While I think that PMing is important in a game, I will take this kind of advice to heart and try to make sure that the vast majority of my communications happens in public.

Games that I've seen elsewhere have benefited from some PMs, such as Justice League coordination (seer, guardian angel, etc).  But yes, the more out in the the open the better - and more entertaining.

[Penchant]

It's less interesting since much less is said in public and it also impacts the game's strategies in ways that are more about using logic to find the scum rather than finding tells and using psychology.

I think there might be a little bit less, but I think it doesn't impact how much is said in public, not because little is being said but because little is being said that they would say in public. The sage isn't going publicly say, I am the sage and this person is an assassin, if they want to live since the assassins will kill him. I would compare this to a game called diplomacy where there is gunboat, public press, and full press. People enjoy all 3 versions, some favoring one more than the other and the only difference is how they comunicate. For this I will specifically compare public press and full press. Public press you only get to talk with everyone as a group, where full press you can talk to everyone as a group or individually. I think with Pming there is much more scheming and building of allies, which I believe is beneficial. There will be some things not shared in public of course, but I don't think it will be a significant amount because most that is done through PM's wouldn't have been shared publicly even if they couldn't use a pm IMO.

The tl;dr version is: More scheming and building of allies with PMing. There will always be a little that would have been said in public but most said in PM's would have been only said in a PM, IMO.

[Indirik]

The problem I have with even limited PMs is that a single message can form an impregnable alliance. For example: "Hi Witness, I'm the Sage." You now have two people that the assassins can *never* break apart, no matter how good they are. And no, I won't consider the possibility that an assassin could fake that message. At least 99% of the time that would be suicide. "Hi diplomat, I'm the Sage" could work by an assassin, but you probably have a 3 in 6, or 3 in 7 chance of being wrong in the Masahakon game.

Speaking of the Masahakon game: That's almost certainly what happpened. Lefanis never had to say one word in public, thus preventing the assassins from ever twigging to the fact that he could be the Sage. He appears to be just another bandwaggoner, or random voter. And every turn either the trusted network grows by another member, or another assassin is pegged.

Things like this completely negate the need for people to use politics, indirect influence, etc, to actually play the game. And yes, the things said in PMs are not the things you would say in public. That's really the whole point. Doing it in private removes much of what I, in my newbness to this game, consider to be the true point of the game.

[Barek (jerm)]

It is my opinion that having 'Justice League' roles, and using various means to align them is an important piece for the Villagers.  The structure of the game is weighted against the Villagers -  the assassins know each other and can use that to drive wedges between the good guys.

I don't want to speak too freely since the Assassins game is still running, but I think that the Seer role SHOULD use PMs to form a bloc!  Without it, the villagers are just scattered sheep.  Which of course is exactly what the Werewolves want, but in order to achieve any likelihood of success, beyond absolutely blind luck, they need to be able to form a bloc and sometimes communicate in secret (much like the Werewolves do).

Remember that even with PMs amongst villagers, there's still a certain level of paranoia and distrust.   The werewolves all know each other.  If a villager gets a note that says "Hey, I'm the seer!"  Does he trust it?  Is it a sneaky werewolf?    Does the Seer take a risk and contact someone that he has not already scanned?  Could be a werewolf!  Could even be an overly-paranoid villager who could out him!

[Indirik]

"Hi I'm the Seer" is a poor message, and of course suspect. "Hi I'm the Seer and I know you're the Guardian Angel" is essentially a guarantee of authenticity.

[Ross]

The problem I have with even limited PMs is that a single message can form an impregnable alliance. For example: "Hi Witness, I'm the Sage." You now have two people that the assassins can *never* break apart, no matter how good they are. And no, I won't consider the possibility that an assassin could fake that message. At least 99% of the time that would be suicide. "Hi diplomat, I'm the Sage" could work by an assassin, but you probably have a 3 in 6, or 3 in 7 chance of being wrong in the Masahakon game.

Speaking of the Masahakon game: That's almost certainly what happpened. Lefanis never had to say one word in public, thus preventing the assassins from ever twigging to the fact that he could be the Sage. He appears to be just another bandwaggoner, or random voter. And every turn either the trusted network grows by another member, or another assassin is pegged.

Things like this completely negate the need for people to use politics, indirect influence, etc, to actually play the game. And yes, the things said in PMs are not the things you would say in public. That's really the whole point. Doing it in private removes much of what I, in my newbness to this game, consider to be the true point of the game.

This the game is not intended that way.

Seer shouldn't be able to single out a person and say : I'm the sage I know you are clean join the club. It makes the roles better than they should be. They are less vulnerable that they are meant to be.

There should be no secret beside what you truly see or believe. Evidence found by a special roles should be say in public or not. Or use your logic to give hint to someone else you know something. Assassin game ended out in a situation it was 50/50 bc of this, and pretty much ruined the last rounds.

[Barek (jerm)]

But the seer cannot positively identify the GA.  Seer can only see Villager or Werewolf.