Ruler become lord of new region.

[Indirik]

@fodder: "empty duchy" implies that the duchy already exists. If so, then the ruler *can* appoint himself duke, even if the duchy has no regions in it.

[fodder]

well... that's not what i mean

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chenier.. i know it's placeholder. just stating alternative dodgy paths.

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a bit more explanation of my suggestion..

if ruler can make himself a duke by creating a regionless duchy centred on ruler only (that sound better?)... then others can protest if they don't like it. (conflict)

it does absolutely nothing by itself. only way that duchy will have a region is if another duke give it one. (lords still can't flip duchy without being physically there in a region of a duchy... no region, no flipping... so you can't undermine the duke this way and have to make someone else a duke if you want to undermine the duke)

there would be no chance of a click war to see whether the duke appoints a lord 1st or the ruler makes himself duke and then lord of an empty region 1st (which would happen if a ruler can create a duchy out of any old empty region.)

(side effect... of the region gifting part. regionless duchy that already exist can be resurrected. so if there are any hanging around, the ruler doesn't even have to created a new one.)


i suppose the downside is, a ruler might decide to make himself duke of a new empty duchy, then step down from the duke bit and make someone a duke, then another duke pass a rural region on to the new duke.. thus in effect creating a new duchy out of a rural. it's sort of a placeholder.

not sure it's a big problem, because 1) need co-operation of others. 2) slap a penalty for stepping down as duke. 3) there are ways of dealing with placeholder already?

[vonGenf]

• Duke (Noble B) appoints Noble C as Lord of region
• Ruler elevates Noble C to Duke
• Noble C steps down as Duke and Lord
• Ruler appoints himself as Duke
• Ruler appoints himself as Lord

There is an alternative, which is to laugh in the face of anyone who runs for  Ruler elections without even being a Duke in the first place, and vote for someone else while telling that noble that they should get themselves named Duke first and come back when they've grown up a bit.

It is weird for a ruler not to be able to name himself Lord, and it's because it is weird to be ruled by an unlanded noble who does not have a land base that they can grant to themselves or others. These rulers should, by definition, be weak rulers.

Even John Lackland was given land before he would rule!

[Chenier]

There is an alternative, which is to laugh in the face of anyone who runs for  Ruler elections without even being a Duke in the first place, and vote for someone else while telling that noble that they should get themselves named Duke first and come back when they've grown up a bit.

It is weird for a ruler not to be able to name himself Lord, and it's because it is weird to be ruled by an unlanded noble who does not have a land base that they can grant to themselves or others. These rulers should, by definition, be weak rulers.

Even John Lackland was given land before he would rule!

A ruler who convinces others to elect him as lord should be able to keep the lordship without (ab)using placeholders.

[Anaris]

A ruler who convinces others to elect him as lord should be able to keep the lordship without (ab)using placeholders.

Please reconcile this with the current form of the hierarchy, with the stipulation that the hierarchy is not what's going to have to bend when the two are in conflict.

[Chenier]

Please reconcile this with the current form of the hierarchy, with the stipulation that the hierarchy is not what's going to have to bend when the two are in conflict.

Things worked great until the auto-"fix" was added in recently.

But as it is with the auto-"fix", dukes couldn't even give regions away to the ruler even if they wanted to.

[Anaris]

Things worked great until the auto-"fix" was added in recently.

But as it is with the auto-"fix", dukes couldn't even give regions away to the ruler even if they wanted to.

As I said: When the current state of affairs and the rules of the hierarchy are in conflict, the hierarchy wins.

Rulers can not be Lords without also being Dukes. This is not negotiable.

What may be negotiable is finding a way to get Rulers into both a Lordship and a Dukeship at the same time, if a good way can be found to do this.

[Chenier]

As I said: When the current state of affairs and the rules of the hierarchy are in conflict, the hierarchy wins.

Rulers can not be Lords without also being Dukes. This is not negotiable.

What may be negotiable is finding a way to get Rulers into both a Lordship and a Dukeship at the same time, if a good way can be found to do this.

That's what is being requested. As for "good", even a clumsy solution would be better than the current situation forcing the use of placeholders.

Several things have been suggested. Autmatically creating a new duchy. Taking the region out of the duchy and into a temporary "imperial" duchy. Allowing the ruler to create a duchy from a vacant city. Granting the ruler some buffer time after being elected in order to give him the time to create a duchy for himself or making himself duke of said duchy. Giving dukes the power to give regions away to the ruler.

There are a great number of possibilities. And each and every one are better than forcing players to use placeholders.

[Charles]

Perhaps dukes should be given the option of appointing rulers to region lord.  The region thus becomes a new duchy.  Have a little checkbox that they need to click so that the duke does not accidentally do this.
Or, the ruler waits til a duchy becomes available.

[Chenier]

Perhaps dukes should be given the option of appointing rulers to region lord.  The region thus becomes a new duchy.  Have a little checkbox that they need to click so that the duke does not accidentally do this.
Or, the ruler waits til a duchy becomes available.

The problem with the waiting solution is that it encourages the use of placeholders, since new cities acquired do not immediately generate an empty duchy seat, but instead get placed into an existing duchy.

[fodder]

... a duke cannot make a ruler a duke or lord? XD

seriously... what i suggested does not contradict hierarchy (at least not that i can see). does not allow ruler to do he wants without involvement/consent of others.

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to summarise..
1) allow dukes to give empty regions in their duchy to another duke
2) allow rulers to make themselves dukes by creating a new duchy that doesn't have any regions. penalty for stepping down as duke.

[Tom]

2) allow rulers to make themselves dukes by creating a new duchy that doesn't have any regions. penalty for stepping down as duke.

Over my dead body. No creation of empty duchies. Never, ever.

[Penchant]

Over my dead body. No creation of empty duchies. Never, ever.

its just one of many suggestions to get this to work without using a placeholder

[Anaris]

Over my dead body. No creation of empty duchies. Never, ever.

Tom, would you be willing to allow some mechanism by which the Ruler and Duke can both agree to create a new Duchy out of a region with a vacant lordship?

[fodder]

Over my dead body. No creation of empty duchies. Never, ever.

well it's only 1 really. for the ruler only. no idea how to limit it.. so penalty for stepping down. also you could make empty duchies disband automatically within... 2 weeks.

another alternative would be...

1) ruler click special link to attempt create duchy from empty region (different from your average duchy link from townsland/city/stronghold)
2) the duke gets an event message asking yes/no.
3) if yes. created. if no. too bad.