New Sea Routes

[Chenier]

There will be no new sea routes, period.

Everyone who says this isn't about politics, but about geography, and then goes on to explain which effect it would have on realms is confused about what "geography" means.

The world does not adapt to realms, realms adapt to what the shape of the world looks like.

If you think one realm has an unfair advantage, gang up and wipe them out.

It's about gameplay. The deformation of the continent has severely modified the possibilities of players. And it isn't about adapting the world to realms, it's about adapting the world to itself. Sure, new sea routes everywhere could be nice, but that would be adapting the world to the realms in the cases where the geography hasn't changed. But the total blighting of everything between Fronen and Rio, with the resulting closing of the narrow passage that used to exist, drastically reduces possibilities.

It's not about some unfair advantage. Honestly, even though I think this has made Riombara invulnerable (to which no amount of extremely unlikely gang banging could counter), I also pity them because of how it means they have been cut off from all possibilities of fun involvement in continental politics. And, by extension, their sole neighbor.

Their isolation is neither normal, nor was it sought or the result of their own actions. I don't tend to consider that they have themselves to blame for isolating themselves (unlike how I tend to consider that northern astrocracies have only themselves to blame if they are now surrounded by nothing but friends or almost).

[Anaris]

Tom, I know you've heard this before, but: I agree with Chénier.

If the problem were that there was a realm that had managed, through whatever politics, war, and other maneuvering, gotten itself in a dead end with only one way out, I would agree with you: Adding sea routes then would be silly.

But this isn't about just a realm that's gotten itself into a bad position.

This is about a whole section of the map that's entirely cut off from the rest.

No matter what realm or combination of realms are there, they won't be able to interact with the rest of Beluaterra meaningfully.

This isn't about politics, Tom. It really is about geography, and fun.

The geography of BT has changed, drastically, and while things are still doing OK during the rebuilding period, it's not going to be long before people in the cut-off tail-end of the continent are getting bored and frustrated because they can't do anything.

Looking at it from a realism perspective, yeah, it would take a while before they would do so, but people in a situation like that would absolutely create new sea routes between the cut-off lands. Unless you're going to tell us that there's still something in the ocean that makes it deadly to people (in other words, unless you're going to tell us that the Blight is still there, for all intents and purposes), people would find a way through, and open up trade with the North again.

(Heck, given enough time—and this would be on a scale of a few years, not geological timescales—Melegra or Ajitmon would become larger towns with the trade that would be going through them, and probably eventually one of them would become a port city. But that seems a bit beyond the scope of this )

So, yes, I understand where you're coming from on this, and yes, I have a vested interest here, and no, changes like this should never be made common—but for goodness sake, Tom, when I'm agreeing with Dominic, I would think it would be pretty clear that there's at least something to what we're trying to say. 

A terrible change has come over the land. People adapt to those kinds of changes, and one of the ways they adapt is by opening up new trade routes across the ocean.

[Poliorketes]

There will be no new sea routes, period.

Everyone who says this isn't about politics, but about geography, and then goes on to explain which effect it would have on realms is confused about what "geography" means.

The world does not adapt to realms, realms adapt to what the shape of the world looks like.

If you think one realm has an unfair advantage, gang up and wipe them out.

So... If When the lands of Beluaterra went under sea, a portion of the map were left totally isolated of the rest of the island... (it could had happened!)

Then these people must play totally isolated on their four-five region's island?... If Riombara were left on a separate island, they must to play totally isolated from the rest of Beluaterra?... or if Beluaterra were been cut in half?

I can understand the rule of 'not to change islands!'... It logical! But this is not the case, this is to 'complete' a new island... because this is not Beluaterra, this is New-Beluaterra. If other islands were made with sea routes, why not New-Beluaterra?

[Telrunya]

I think it will sort out itself. Riombara and Enweil have plenty of history, which may evolve past just Riombara - Enweil. Either Riombara will implode or they will start becoming very meddling with the Northern Realms, there is potential for both possibilities. Riombara's defensive location also allows it to send her armies further up north to be annoying without worries.

All in all, it's theories. Beluaterra hasn't been given enough time to show IF the complaints are true. What I really want to say is: At least give Beluaterra a chance to sort itself out before asking such changes.

[Tom]

What Telrunya says.

If there are any actual problems that show up, we can have this discussion again. But not because of hypothetical problem. And yes, anything right now is a hypothetical problem. Let's wait how things play out first. Lots of things could happen.

[vonGenf]

If there are any actual problems that show up, we can have this discussion again. But not because of hypothetical problem. And yes, anything right now is a hypothetical problem. Let's wait how things play out first. Lots of things could happen.

I see things the other way around.

Right now, there is no political reasons to add or not add new sea routes, because the politics of New-Beluaterra haven't really crystallized yet. This is the perfect timing to change things to make the island make more sense from a purely geographical point of view. Maybe some people think of politics at the same time but you can safely ignore them: they're wrong.

If you wait six months to see how things evolve, then it will be impossible to discard politics, because everyone will have had ample time to see the effect of the new geography and adapt their politics to the geography. And if then you realize that this leads to stagnation, there will be nothing you can do without half the realms crying foul.

[Naidraug]

Creating sea routes now, are a way to realms adapt to the shape of the world.

If we consider, IC, that with reconstruction the people will start to trade again, they would try the best way to achieve this, now, if a trader from realm A wanted to trade with realm C, he would prefer to use a safe sea route to realm C, that does not pass through realm B. Why? Many reasons, the realms aren't friends, more taxes to pay, etc.

This is a realm adapting to the shape of the world.

It is logical that people from Riombara would try to create sea routes to Melhed, because they are friendly realms, it would be dangerous for them to pass through Enweil because the have a history of hate towards each other.

Or Sint creating one better route to Thalmarkin that does not move though OG.

The creation of Sea Routes here are logical and an adaptation of the realms to the new island shape.  If we, the players, had the power to do it, we would end up doing it, because it is a logical step to adapt and to continue to have a fun island for everyone. But we can't so we have to ask for them.

Even if done slowly (like, when the city reaches a X number of population or the ruler has the option to build a port) it is an adaptation of the realms to the shape of the world.

And like vonGenf said, it is better to do it now that everything is quiet and in a recovery state than when there is war and the nobles can complain about a sea route been created to reach their city.

[Geronus]

I think it will sort out itself. Riombara and Enweil have plenty of history, which may evolve past just Riombara - Enweil. Either Riombara will implode or they will start becoming very meddling with the Northern Realms, there is potential for both possibilities. Riombara's defensive location also allows it to send her armies further up north to be annoying without worries.

All in all, it's theories. Beluaterra hasn't been given enough time to show IF the complaints are true. What I really want to say is: At least give Beluaterra a chance to sort itself out before asking such changes.

Speaking hypothetically, it's a hell of a slog for Riombara to go up north and have adventures. With 60 men and no siege engines, it would take me 18 turns to reach Wudenkin from my current location in Ardmore, and that's only half the trip. While it is therefore possible for Riombara to send its army north, it's also not very much fun. You spend more than two weeks just traveling back and forth for however many limited days of action you can get in before equipment damage and lack of funds force you to return. Personally, this does not sound even remotely appealing to me.

[Indirik]

Speaking hypothetically, it's a hell of a slog for Riombara to go up north and have adventures. With 60 men and no siege engines, it would take me 18 turns to reach Wudenkin from my current location in Ardmore, and that's only half the trip. While it is therefore possible for Riombara to send its army north, it's also not very much fun. You spend more than two weeks just traveling back and forth for however many limited days of action you can get in before equipment damage and lack of funds force you to return.

Riombara: The Darka of Belauterra.

[Anaris]

Riombara: The Darka of Belauterra.

Right, because Darka is completely isolated down a long corridor of land completely surrounded by sea, and in order to reach more than a single other realm from their farthest-in-the-corner region, they would have to travel at least a full week.

There's a massive difference between "we've made alliances that mean we need to travel a long way to fight against someone" and "any realm here, no matter how the politics was set up, would have to travel a long way just to meet someone else".

[Bedwyr]

So, yes, I understand where you're coming from on this, and yes, I have a vested interest here, and no, changes like this should never be made common—but for goodness sake, Tom, when I'm agreeing with Dominic, I would think it would be pretty clear that there's at least something to what we're trying to say.

When Tim and I both agree with Dominic on something, clearly the world (almost) came to an end, and apocalyptic end scenarios need to be considered.

Can I imagine scenarios where this turns out to be a non-issue?  Sure, I can.  Do any of them seem even remotely likely?  Not really.  Civil wars only last so long before one side or the other wins and drives the others out.  And the space is too limited for the three, four, or more way alliance tangles that could make for interesting external politics.

We could completely rewrite how the whole island works, and turn the south into a Crusader State (be it on religious, philosophical, or political lines), sending out troops to harass others or support colonies, but the sheer distances involved are frankly mindboggling to me.

[Geronus]

Riombara: The Darka of Belauterra.

Over my dead body.

[Penchant]

There will be no new sea routes, period.

Everyone who says this isn't about politics, but about geography, and then goes on to explain which effect it would have on realms is confused about what "geography" means.

The world does not adapt to realms, realms adapt to what the shape of the world looks like.

If you think one realm has an unfair advantage, gang up and wipe them out.

But any realm in Riombara spot will always have an unfair advantage unlike anywhere else in BM . The ruler, ( I believe tan serrai Is ruler but I am not on Beluterra) of Riombara has even suggested routes to weaken riombaras spot. There are several things in this game that are only there for game balance and this should be one as its not one realm having an advantage its whoever owns that land does which is why it's not political but geographical need for it.

[Chenier]

I think it will sort out itself. Riombara and Enweil have plenty of history, which may evolve past just Riombara - Enweil. Either Riombara will implode or they will start becoming very meddling with the Northern Realms, there is potential for both possibilities. Riombara's defensive location also allows it to send her armies further up north to be annoying without worries.

All in all, it's theories. Beluaterra hasn't been given enough time to show IF the complaints are true. What I really want to say is: At least give Beluaterra a chance to sort itself out before asking such changes.

How long do we wait before being able to say "Okay, this sucks, we got nothing to do"? But mainly, the thing I have against waiting is that *then* it would become political. "Where do we make the route?" will become quite political once the rebuilding phase is over and alliances crumble, wars begin. It would seem infinitely fairer to determine an appropriate route before political and strategic interests come in play.

Yes, the lack of a route will force adaptations. But the adaptations will be limited. And such adaptations only create a whole lot more frustration than anything. I don't see the point of isolating the South-East so much. After all, it's not like a sea route to the north-east would make them suddenly accessible to all.

[Poliorketes]

I don't really understand... the islands are as they are, and will not be touched or changed!... ok

But half of Beluaterra is in the bottom of sea, and is ok, but to put some sea routes is not possible? to make disappear a region is right while to put a sea route is wrong?