Author Topic: New Sea Routes  (Read 22503 times)

Anaris

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #60: September 24, 2012, 01:41:06 PM »
Sea routes ARE changes to the world because they connect place A to place B. Basically, you could just as well change the map so that A and B touch each other, that's the effect that sea routes have.

And that is why sea routes suck, because they connect A to B, but not A2 to B, even though you could make the same argument for A2 as you made for A. So either it is tons of sea routes all over the place, which makes everything connect to everything and makes coastal cities totally vulnerable towards naval invasions, or you don't.

All you guys arguing historically are forgetting an important detail: There are no actual sea routes in this game. Nowhere. We simulate them by having connections between unconnected regions, but the game doesn't know these are sea routes. It doesn't know that landing your soldiers in an enemy city by sea is not the same as marching in by land. It doesn't know that you could be attacked by an enemy navy at sea. It doesn't know about weather, it doesn't know about ports, it doesn't know about the fact that sea routes should be limited by the number of available ships, it knows bugger all.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Well, a) That's just plain wrong. The game does know they're sea routes, and that's how it can prevent you from scouting along them. It also knows about weather; we just don't happen to have weather affect sea travel.

And b) None of that matters. It's all still totally and completely irrelevant to the point at hand.

You know why?

Because unless you're planning to either remove every single existing sea route from the game, thus isolating a lot of people form each other, or implement full-fledged sea travel, all this is saying is "Our system for this is imperfect," while totally ignoring the fact that we actually have a system for this.

If you're never ever going to give us a sea route from the isolated tail-end of SE Beluaterra to the rest of the continent just because you don't want to, then please, Tom, just say so. Stop hiding behind BS justifications like this that make no sense whatsoever.

Or, better yet, just add one. It's not hard. It doesn't take a lot of work in the DB or on the map image. Hell, I'll do all the DB work if you want.

Trying to argue that the maps don't change that way is stupid, because the BT map has already changed massively.
Trying to argue that sea routes are a terrible hack is stupid, because we have over a dozen already on Dwilight alone.
Trying to argue that we shouldn't make these decisions for political reasons is stupid, because either all the existing sea routes are political, or none of them are. This one is needed because there's no other place in the game that you have such an isolated piece of land, and it's bad game design to allow it to remain.
Trying to argue that we should wait and see how things develop is stupid, because we know that there's no realistic way that piece of land can do anything but stagnate over the long term if it's left isolated like this.

It really, really feels like either you really want to eliminate sea routes in BM entirely and replace them with proper sea travel—which would be fine as a solution to this, if it were going to happen some time in the next few months—or there's some kind of deeper reason that you don't want to add this sea route, but you don't want to admit to it, so you keep covering it up with increasingly confusing and illogical justifications.
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Nosferatus

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #61: September 24, 2012, 02:28:09 PM »
I must say that we have to admit that we do not know the exact effects of leaving the map as it is or adding sea routes.
However, the more variables the higher the chance that things change or intresting stuff happens.
With more acces for realms, it thus increases this chance.

If sea travel is indeed faulty or missing mechanics, then lets fix it!
I know for sure that most people will like new sea routes beeing established in BT.
and the main goal for a game is it to be found fun, if most of us think this will add to the fun, then lets give it a try.

On the other hand, isolating the south from the north could characterize the lands more, create two independent political grounds, who will perhaps grow in culture, completely apart from each other, greating other intresting situations.
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Tom

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #62: September 24, 2012, 04:42:12 PM »
Well, a) That's just plain wrong. The game does know they're sea routes, and that's how it can prevent you from scouting along them. It also knows about weather; we just don't happen to have weather affect sea travel.

Oh yeah. We have a road type that's called "sea route". Still, the game uses the same mechanics for sea routes as it does for roads, and aside from a few if calls for a tiny fraction of what the actual differences are, everything I wrote is true.

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all this is saying is "Our system for this is imperfect," while totally ignoring the fact that we actually have a system for this.

No, we don't. We have an ugly hack.


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Trying to argue that sea routes are a terrible hack is stupid, because we have over a dozen already on Dwilight alone.

Yes, because the map would be total suck without. Doesn't mean they aren't a terrible hack, it just means the alternative was worse.


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It really, really feels like either you really want to eliminate sea routes in BM entirely and replace them with proper sea travel—which would be fine as a solution to this, if it were going to happen some time in the next few months—or there's some kind of deeper reason that you don't want to add this sea route, but you don't want to admit to it, so you keep covering it up with increasingly confusing and illogical justifications.

I would love to hav actual sea travel, and I've started code on that several times. It never worked out well, but with the new polygon map system, it just might.

The reason is right here: Sea routes as we have them are terrible, the suck, they destroy way too many strategic points, allow backdoor entrances into cities, are not actually anything even resembling sea, and they're an ugly hack. That is why I don't want proliferation on them.



Anaris

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #63: September 24, 2012, 04:56:15 PM »
The reason is right here: Sea routes as we have them are terrible, the suck, they destroy way too many strategic points, allow backdoor entrances into cities, are not actually anything even resembling sea, and they're an ugly hack. That is why I don't want proliferation on them.

And not one single bit of this is a good counterargument to all the reasons—stated pretty well in this thread, so I'm not going to repeat them all—why there should be just one more sea route on Beluaterra, after the biggest change to a continent's geography in the history of BattleMaster has happened and left one part of the continent extremely isolated and likely to end up way less fun than most of the rest of the game without such a route.
Timothy Collett

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Tom

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #64: September 24, 2012, 05:48:53 PM »
And not one single bit of this is a good counterargument to all the reasons—stated pretty well in this thread, so I'm not going to repeat them all—why there should be just one more sea route on Beluaterra, after the biggest change to a continent's geography in the history of BattleMaster has happened and left one part of the continent extremely isolated and likely to end up way less fun than most of the rest of the game without such a route.

I'm not sure if I am talking to a wall here.

Adding one route only would be the absolute worst possible scenario. It would instantly make the two regions on its ends 10 times as important as they are now.


I am not happy with how BT turned out, either. But adding some random sea route is NOT the correct solution.

Anaris

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #65: September 24, 2012, 05:59:27 PM »
I'm not sure if I am talking to a wall here.

To be honest, I feel the same way.

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Adding one route only would be the absolute worst possible scenario. It would instantly make the two regions on its ends 10 times as important as they are now.

A) Why is that so terrible?
B) Isn't that better than letting the entire southeast of Beluaterra just wither away and become a place where whatever realm or realms exist there struggle to find some kind of fun by marching weeks to do something with the rest of the continent?

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I am not happy with how BT turned out, either. But adding some random sea route is NOT the correct solution.

Then for the love of Great Cthulhu, propose something else. Or at least give us some kind of hint that you're considering doing something else, rather than just saying, "Nope, the situation's terrible, no one's going to have any fun there, but if I were to actually do the obvious thing that would fix that, it would cause this TERRIBLE HORRIBLE CATASTROPHE—that is, it would make 2 regions super important!!!"
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Tom

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #66: September 24, 2012, 06:26:22 PM »
I don't have a solution or I would've posted it.

But I know it when I see a proposal that will cause more trouble than it solves, and this is one of them. And since everything on BT is still running for the rogue regions, I don't see why we absolutely have to solve this TODAY. There is time enough to come up with a real solution instead of some stupid hack.

And yes, that goes for Dwilight, etc. as well. Sea routes as we have them right now suck, they are absolutely horrible, and I don't remember what messed up my brain when Dwilight was launched the way it is today with those terrible routes between major cities that totally nuke any defensive strategy the donut regions were intended to add. We shot ourselves in the foot with a bazooka there.

Anaris

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #67: September 24, 2012, 06:41:01 PM »
But I know it when I see a proposal that will cause more trouble than it solves, and this is one of them. And since everything on BT is still running for the rogue regions, I don't see why we absolutely have to solve this TODAY. There is time enough to come up with a real solution instead of some stupid hack.

This, I certainly agree with. It's going to be a few months before we start seriously running into problems.

As long as we're spending that time looking for solutions, instead of just seeing how things develop, I'm content to accept not implementing anything now.

That said, I'm still not sure I see why adding a sea route would be massively worse than the situation as it stands. What, exactly, are the problems you foresee from doing so? Bearing in mind that, for instance, Melegra was always the one region that connected the islands back to the rest of the continent, through the now-sunken Fwuvoghor.

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And yes, that goes for Dwilight, etc. as well. Sea routes as we have them right now suck, they are absolutely horrible, and I don't remember what messed up my brain when Dwilight was launched the way it is today with those terrible routes between major cities that totally nuke any defensive strategy the donut regions were intended to add. We shot ourselves in the foot with a bazooka there.

Well, do you think it would be feasible to tweak them to come from the donut regions, instead, at this point?

Honestly, that would actually make them more militarily viable in some ways, since no one really wants to try traveling a week by ship to assault level 5 walls with massive militia behind them. Being able to land in the townsland, where there's actually some chance of succeeding in an assault, would be much preferable.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Geronus

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #68: September 24, 2012, 07:47:39 PM »
Yes, because the map would be total suck without. Doesn't mean they aren't a terrible hack, it just means the alternative was worse.

Which is exactly what our argument is for adding this one. Couldn't have stated it better myself.

We're not asking you to add new sea routes to a map that has been the way it is for a long time. We are petitioning (begging) you to apply the workaround we have to address the exact situation that it was designed to address.

The reason is right here: Sea routes as we have them are terrible, the suck, they destroy way too many strategic points, allow backdoor entrances into cities, are not actually anything even resembling sea, and they're an ugly hack. That is why I don't want proliferation on them.

Adding one route only would be the absolute worst possible scenario. It would instantly make the two regions on its ends 10 times as important as they are now.

Practically speaking, adding a sea route from Melegra to Fronepu would be almost no different than the situation that existed before the map was blown up. Melegra to Fwuvoghor was still a one region wide bottleneck blocked by a city at one end. We'd be changing the city that is the bottleneck, but everything else about the situation would remain effectively identical, with the islands having that one tenuous connection to the northern half of the map. As opposed to the current status quo, where they are basically a dead end no-fun zone with only one way off and on.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 07:51:33 PM by Geronus »

Tom

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #70: September 25, 2012, 12:36:16 AM »
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3210.msg74376.html

May I request that, until a sea travel alternative is worked out and pushed live, we have the sea route, following the old rules, established?

I too preffer actual sea travel as proposed rather than the current road over sea mechanics, but when can this new system be expected for?
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Tom

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #71: September 25, 2012, 02:08:21 AM »
May I request that, until a sea travel alternative is worked out and pushed live, we have the sea route, following the old rules, established?

No. End of discussion.

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #72: September 25, 2012, 02:35:00 AM »
Tom, you seem to be getting increasingly defensive and combative over changes everyone else seems to agree on. Case in point, the forum thread that Indirik recently closed regarding the duke situation. Everyone else was discussing the situation civilly, while you were getting more and more antagonistic with each post. Is it so much to ask that you follow your own statement, from that thread? See below, I'm sure the words will seem familiar to you:

You are simplifying the argument and thus missing the answer. If you go through the full process of how these happen, you see immediately why.


I'm sick and tired of having arguments on this forum. If you have a suggestion, make it and it will be accepted or rejected. This constant bickering back and forth and arguing for arguments sake is causing frustration and nothing else. So to save everyone the frustration: Bad luck, this is how it is, I will not change it, period, end of discussion.

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Re: New Sea Routes
« Reply #73: September 25, 2012, 04:03:10 AM »
And this thread is done, too.
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