Author Topic: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?  (Read 20899 times)

Draco Tanos

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
    • Nova Roma
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #15: September 29, 2012, 07:33:23 PM »
Until new ones inevitably formed as it's part of human nature to create circles of those you can trust.  Or believe you can trust.

James

  • BM Dev Team
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 996
  • WARNING: Outer Tilog is different...
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #16: September 29, 2012, 07:58:44 PM »
So do these super exclusive cliques actually exist anywhere or is all of this discussion a waste of time based on a theoretical situation that doesn't actually exist?

If they do, report it properly and have it dealt with as it should be as something that is detrimental to the game.

If they don't, why are we talking about it?

As shown in the recent case that was raised, the people making the accusations within the game refused to make any official complaints about it and, when one of those accused raised the complaint himself, none of those complainers within the game came on to give any evidence about what they were saying (despite being encouraged to multiple times within the game).

Just because people don't like something that happens in game to their character doesn't default make it OOC reasoning. Occasionally though, those on the receiving end of an action don't like to accept that it's all IC motivated and insist there must be OOC collusion and clanning...

So, as I said in my initial response to the question - Can old folk home club is considered as clan? - that was asked:

If that club excluded others from playing and did much of their discussion OOC then I'd say yes. Though I doubt there would be any like that as the older players should be encouraging newer players to get involved.
WARNING: Outer Tilog is different...

Vellos

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3736
  • Stodgy Old Man in Training
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #17: September 29, 2012, 08:22:16 PM »
So do these super exclusive cliques actually exist anywhere or is all of this discussion a waste of time based on a theoretical situation that doesn't actually exist?

Yes, in most realms, IMHO.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #18: September 29, 2012, 08:56:14 PM »
Yes, in most realms, IMHO.

Human nature exists in most realms. I would not, however, say that super exclusive cliques exist in most places.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

James

  • BM Dev Team
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 996
  • WARNING: Outer Tilog is different...
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #19: September 29, 2012, 09:19:06 PM »
Yes, in most realms, IMHO.

To the detriment of the realm?

Give examples... So far in all of the discussion it has only been about theoreticals. No actual situations have been mentioned at all. Vague comments with nothing to back them up serve no purpose whatsoever.
WARNING: Outer Tilog is different...

Draco Tanos

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
    • Nova Roma
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #20: September 29, 2012, 09:35:03 PM »
It sounds like some are upset that long standing characters rise to positions of prominence over newcomers.  Isn't that how things just work?  Honestly, if I spent years serving a realm loyally and someone who had been in the game only a few weeks or months was appointed over me simply because he was a new player I would be angry. 

I've come across this mindset in Westmoor.  Newer players get annoyed that they "aren't recognized".  I.E. they aren't given lordships immediately when one opens up.  Why should they be rewarded over someone who served loyally for years?

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #21: September 29, 2012, 10:17:34 PM »
Personally, I'm against giving someone a position just because they've been in the realm forever. It can be a point in your favor, but you'd better have something more than that if you want a spot. This is doubly true if the position is a good one, like Margrave or Duke.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Draco Tanos

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
    • Nova Roma
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #22: September 29, 2012, 10:23:30 PM »
Oh, I can agree with that completely.  I'd never give a position just because someone's been in the realm for awhile.  They either have to stand out or have shown continual good service to the realm.

Vellos

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3736
  • Stodgy Old Man in Training
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #23: September 29, 2012, 10:35:09 PM »
Personally, I'm against giving someone a position just because they've been in the realm forever. It can be a point in your favor, but you'd better have something more than that if you want a spot. This is doubly true if the position is a good one, like Margrave or Duke.

Generally, I actually am more likely to oppose someone's promotion f they're a golden oldie.

To the detriment of the realm?

Give examples... So far in all of the discussion it has only been about theoreticals. No actual situations have been mentioned at all. Vague comments with nothing to back them up serve no purpose whatsoever.

Examples?

Terran generally works hard to avoid this problem, but I know I had some concerns we might have a bit of it going on a few months ago when we had a big influx of new players. Hence one of the major motivations for Hireshmont taking a step back.

Eston is absolutely like this– a handful of players (largely with two characters each in Eston) have held effectively the same positions for approximately forever. It's hilarious if you look at their HighCouncl– they're basically all, like, 65+ years old. Makes for some fun RPing I guess, but annoying to play alongside.

Riombara when it didn't have secessionist elements agitating seemed like this to me.

Norland was definitely like this.

Most realms I've played in, to me, seem to have undue concentration of power based in large part on OOC friendships. Not to pick on someone specifically, but the relationship between the Bellator and Anaris families (i.e. players) is a great example.

Or, another example, the Vellos and Perth families– we are definitely OOC friends, and that definitely does affect how we play. I know we both try to mitigate it, but we don't do nearly a well enough job.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Kellaine

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 342
  • Honor in Service
    • View Profile
    • Thatcher  Family
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #24: September 30, 2012, 12:19:04 AM »
another example of ooc relations/friendships can effect how in game families relate to one another.

The Thatcher family and the Dragul Family.  We are married and so tend to support one another alot. But we are only on one world together. that is is Dwilight and my wife is my duchess to the chain of command is very clear and reasonable to assume that I will support her no matter what she does...... well almost anything... LOL
Dexter - Principality of Zonasa, Telgar - Principality of Zonasa, Wil - Morek Empire, Crom- Adventurer - Kabrinskia-paused

Vellos

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3736
  • Stodgy Old Man in Training
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #25: September 30, 2012, 01:54:43 AM »
we are only on one world together.

So it's far less of a problem.

My concern is that many players who have been around for a long time repeatedly play with the same people. Or refuse to do so.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #26: September 30, 2012, 02:18:39 AM »
People tend to find people they enjoy playing with, and stick with them. I know that when I have deliberately chosen new realms with some new characters, I have met with cold shoulders, beligerence, and even some outright OOC hostility. Needless to say, I will tend to avoid those people again in the future. That won't stop me from trying a new place or two, but I will probably try to find places they are not. So it will be more likely that I end up with the same subset od realm-mates again.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #27: September 30, 2012, 03:43:07 AM »
As one becomes known, one's reputation tends to proceed you. I have found that if I settle where I don't know any friendly faces, people who have negative opinions of my family will hinder me greatly and will be free to spread their influence against me.

Newbies have the luxury of being able to go anywhere with a clean slate, nobody really caring about them negatively (some will indeed make them freebies for being new).

"Established" families don't have that same luxury. I've had characters blocked from very basic integration into a realm just because of what another character of mine (never) did on another continent. I owe my influence purely to my extensive knowledge of the places I play in and, especially, the people who support me. Without the latter, I'm nothing. As such, I'll use my influence when possible to get these people in positions of power. On the other hand, I note what others say, and attempt to spot those who have agendas contrary to mine, in order to block these people from getting up the chain. Though I've never seen people accusing me of being exclusive, I could imagine that on the outside, some people may think I'm part of some OOC clique that doesn't want to share power. But in truth, I don't have OOC ties with any of the players I play with anymore, since long ago, and all of my "friends" were made IC due to them being like-minded, loyal to me, or otherwise supportive of my causes.

I think that a lot of "cliques" can be seen as exclusive to those on the outside who don't understand them. Not all players are meant to get along and become allies, however, and it's normal for like-minded people to cling together to better push their agendas. It's human nature. And it's perfectly alright.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Vellos

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3736
  • Stodgy Old Man in Training
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #28: September 30, 2012, 08:00:48 AM »
t when I have deliberately chosen new realms with some new characters, I have met with cold shoulders, beligerence, and even some outright OOC hostility.

And that is a problem and it is contrary to the social contract, and it is exclusive.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Perth

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2037
  • Current Character: Kemen
    • View Profile
Re: Can old folk home club is considered as clan?
« Reply #29: September 30, 2012, 08:52:45 AM »
Terran generally works hard to avoid this problem, but I know I had some concerns we might have a bit of it going on a few months ago when we had a big influx of new players. Hence one of the major motivations for Hireshmont taking a step back.

Terran is interesting. On one hand, we certainly have a circle in power that has been in power for some time. On the other hand, Lordships are a revolving door and any new character who is in the realm for a month has a very good chance of gaining a Lordship fairly easily, and because Terran is a Republic being a Lord gets you on the Senate meaning you automotically can have an influential voice in how the realm behaves and operates--if you want to. What's most surprising is that most people fail to be active or talkative in the Senate, and therefore fail to become very influential.

Heck, even the gov't positions aren't that hard to get into. The last election we actually have a bit of a hard time even getting people to want to run for some of them.

Eston is absolutely like this– a handful of players (largely with two characters each in Eston) have held effectively the same positions for approximately forever. It's hilarious if you look at their HighCouncl– they're basically all, like, 65+ years old. Makes for some fun RPing I guess, but annoying to play alongside.

Geez, Eston is awful. Vellos is not exaggerating. The circle of power in Eston is literally about 4-5 families, and yes all with 2 characters in the realm. Most all of the characters are 65+, with a few well into their 70's or 80's. A couple even exclusively play in Eston with no characters on other continents or realms. They favor each other strongly, and would never tolerate one of the others losing their key positions or powers. Most of them have been Duke of almost every city in Eston at some point, held government positions at some point, or even been King at some point. Also, most hold multiple titles "Duke, Marshal, Sponsor, Gov't Member." Finally, if one of them does retire or kill off a character, the new young "son" or "young cousin" or "nephew" character they bring in is automatically favored for appointments, etc. because "their father taught them everything he knew about running a realm."

Now, none of it illegal or against the rules, obviously. And I don't think they're a clan or any OOC communication goes on (they don't even need to do that. They don't even need to communicate that many things IC to each other, cause they all just know they have each other's backs.) They all know and address each other by name OOC, simply because they know each other cause they've been playing together for so long. But wow, it is crazy entrenched and there is hardly anything you can do about it.


Or, another example, the Vellos and Perth families– we are definitely OOC friends, and that definitely does affect how we play. I know we both try to mitigate it, but we don't do nearly a well enough job.

This is true. Though I feel we've done pretty well over the years. I mean the only characters who have really been friends is Kale and Hireshmont II, and those guys have some legit history. From Melodia, to trying to rebuild Melodia, to building Terran from the ground up into what it is today.

Other than that, there isn't much. Kerwin and Cyrilos, but only very recently, and only marginally and too no gain. Actually, the opposite.

-----


But when it comes to new players, if I am in a position of power I am always looking for the new guys. Honestly, I seek out new people hoping they will be someone I can 1)make friends with and 2) rely on for things. Reliable people are hard to find and if I can find an enthusiastic youngster wanting to contribute, that can only mean goods things for both of us. I support him into positions/power quickly, we both gain a political ally/friend, and I gain a reliable character for military things, or even politics.

I have done this in Terran to great effect. The current Chief Magistrate of Terran, Alura, being the best example. As soon as that player joined the game and put a character in Terran I was in contact with the character. As I encouraged their own excitement about the game, I realized their potential and quickly helped them up the ladder by making her my Vice Marshal, and not long after the Marshal. Supported her into an important Lordship in my Duchy (whose loyalties to myself and the Duchy I push strongly), financially supported her, and bam the player was hooked to the game and we had both benefited from the relationship. Now the character is ruler of Terran.

Older characters, on the other hand, are much harder to play with. They have their own agendas and designs. Seek conflict. And generally aren't as beneficial to you unless you have a prior established relationship.

Honestly, I don't know why more people don't eagerly jump onto and actively fight (for influence) over the new guys. Sure, a lot aren't responsive, or don't show interest. But many do. And frankly, more would show more interest and "get into the game" if they were engaged by people right from the start.


"A tale is but half told when only one person tells it." - The Saga of Grettir the Strong
- Current: Kemen (D'hara) - Past: Kerwin (Eston), Kale (Phantaria, Terran, Melodia)