Can old folk home club is considered as clan?

[Lefanis]

I know that when I have deliberately chosen new realms with some new characters, I have met with cold shoulders, beligerence, and even some outright OOC hostility. Needless to say, I will tend to avoid those people again in the future.

 

I thought that was just me.

[Tom]

I've been following this a bit. Here's my "official" two cents:


No, "old guys clubs" are NOT clans. A clan is something that has an OOC element to it. An "old guys club" running a realm might still be a problem, if they are excluding others. But they are not a clan by the definition I use. This is especially true for the "official" position on clans that basically says "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others".

[Gustav Kuriga]

I've been following this a bit. Here's my "official" two cents:


No, "old guys clubs" are NOT clans. A clan is something that has an OOC element to it. An "old guys club" running a realm might still be a problem, if they are excluding others. But they are not a clan by the definition I use. This is especially true for the "official" position on clans that basically says "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others".

Did you just contradict yourself in the same post?

[Chenier]

But when it comes to new players, if I am in a position of power I am always looking for the new guys. Honestly, I seek out new people hoping they will be someone I can 1)make friends with and 2) rely on for things. Reliable people are hard to find and if I can find an enthusiastic youngster wanting to contribute, that can only mean goods things for both of us. I support him into positions/power quickly, we both gain a political ally/friend, and I gain a reliable character for military things, or even politics.

Indeed, giving newbies a freebie is often a really easy way to make an ally, because he's much more grateful than the guy who has been there forever and probably already has an opinion of you.

I also do this.

But I don't have the time and energy I had three years ago. As such, I tend to wait for them to say or do something noteworthy, such as speak out against someone I dislike or in favor of a cause I support. There was just too many newbies over the years who couldn't even be arsed to reply at anything, plus all of those who just autopaused, that I don't really have the will, personally, to do any of the first steps anymore.

I do feel it is totally normal, however, that they should at least show some interest in interacting with others if they wish to get anything from them. Mute newbies are of little interest, because 1) you can't tell what side they'd be on in any given conflict and 2) even if they did support you, they wouldn't contribute to making stuff interesting.

[Ketchum]

Hmm, as long as the old folk home club, the grand oldies players do not exclude other new players, I too personally feel fine.

It also help if the newbie players are more talkative than keeping quiet all the time when in the realm.

[Chenier]

Hmm, as long as the old folk home club, the grand oldies players do not exclude other new players, I too personally feel fine.

It also help if the newbie players are more talkative than keeping quiet all the time when in the realm.

Which most of them do.

Some of them are just scared or intimidated, though. We really need to spam them with big bold messages suggesting that they interact with others and that they will not be devoured for daring to speak with people in power.

I know I had this unhealthy fear of being considered unworthy, when I was new. Mind you, things were different back then, and I really was kind of unworthy to these people who had ruled the realms since the creation of the game (or almost)....

[Anaris]

Most realms I've played in, to me, seem to have undue concentration of power based in large part on OOC friendships. Not to pick on someone specifically, but the relationship between the Bellator and Anaris families (i.e. players) is a great example.

You keep bringing this up, and I honestly have no idea where you're getting it from. Yes, I enjoy playing with Tonie and his characters and mine interact a lot. But a) they don't always actually get along, and b) there are only two instances in which they have actually held power together. One was in Svunnetland, where they both got so fed up with the state EricSP had left the realm in that they left the game (retired) together, and the other was in Pian en Luries—where they were opposed by a significant faction, and where I'm almost positive you never came. Furthermore, the only active conspiracy to keep people out of power they've participated in was in Pian en Luries, where said people were also actively working to undermine Alanna's reign. Finally, the other thing that characterizes the relationships between our various characters is that they tend to be each other's only political ally. It's really, really hard to deny people positions of power when there are only two of you working to do so.

I'm really peeved that you seem to somehow have it in for the two of us, when all we've ever done is enjoy RPing together, and I'm nearly certain we've never actually denied you anything when we've been in any kind of position of power together.

[Tom]

Did you just contradict yourself in the same post?

No.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I've been following this a bit. Here's my "official" two cents:


No, "old guys clubs" are NOT clans. A clan is something that has an OOC element to it. An "old guys club" running a realm might still be a problem, if they are excluding others. But they are not a clan by the definition I use. This is especially true for the "official" position on clans that basically says "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others".

You basically said that you don't consider "old guys clubs" clans, and said that they might be a problem if they exclude others. Then you said that part of the of official rule on clans is "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others." Wouldn't, by that definition, mean that any old guys club that excluded others also be a clan?

[Tom]

I probably need to make more clear what the OOC problem is:

An "old boys" club in-game is something that you can break into. You can become part of the group by nothing else but playing the game.

And OOC clan, a group of friends from school, or whatever, is usually more difficult to join. Either you can't at all (without, say, moving to their country and going to their school) or you need to take steps outside the game, such as joining a clan, signing up at yet another forum, etc. etc.

The important part for me in all of that is "...by nothing else but playing the game." - we have guilds, secret societies and other groupings inside the game, so obviously it is perfectly ok to form groups inside the game. Noticed? inside the game is the keyword here. You can become a member of a guild in-game, you can join the "old boys network" in-game - no activities outside the game required.

And that's what matters to me. I would definitely come hard down upon an in-game guild that only allows people from, say, the same school into full member ranks. That's an OOC clan (precisely, an in-game representation of an OOC clan). But a guild that tries to keep power in some realms among its ranks, but that you can join and advance in without any OOC restrictions, that is just political intrigue and scheming.

[Tom]

You basically said that you don't consider "old guys clubs" clans, and said that they might be a problem if they exclude others. Then you said that part of the of official rule on clans is "it's not illegal to have friends or play with them, but please don't exclude others." Wouldn't, by that definition, mean that any old guys club that excluded others also be a clan?

All chicken are birds, but not all birds are chicken.

[Vellos]

I probably need to make more clear what the OOC problem is:

An "old boys" club in-game is something that you can break into. You can become part of the group by nothing else but playing the game.

But that isn't the case.

Consider Eston, as perhaps a uniquely extreme example– it doesn't matter if you're in Eston for two RL years, because the "old boys club" will always be there 3-5 years longer. You will never be their equal.

Now maybe we could argue that the difference eventually approaches irrelevance after a few years– sure, I'll buy that. But here's the problem: you're arguing that it's not exclusive because it only takes, what 3 YEARS to be included? Holy !@#$ man– at what point does it become exclusive? A decade to be initiated?

Exclusivity is exclusivity– maybe not a "clan" per se, but still certainly not playing with friends.

[egamma]

Exclusivity is exclusivity– maybe not a "clan" per se, but still certainly not playing with friends.

It's like playing a game with a friend you've known for 10 years and one you've known for 10 weeks.

My suggestion? Get out of Eston, and go join the Barony of Makar. Sordnaz likes to randomly put fairly new people into positions, because he's a cool guy.

[Ender]

My suggestion? Get out of Eston, and go join the Barony of Makar. Sordnaz likes to randomly put fairly new people into positions, because he's a cool guy.

Most of us in power try to keep lordships pretty fresh, though the realm council can be pretty stagnant at times (though there aren't typically any complaints about that and Sordnaz being ruler forever hasnt ever really been contested). I recently stepped down after forever to let another player take judge, our recent General went mad after being replaced, and our banker changes hands more often then the others however.

[^ban^]

Most of us in power try to keep lordships pretty fresh, though the realm council can be pretty stagnant at times (though there aren't typically any complaints about that and Sordnaz being ruler forever hasnt ever really been contested). I recently stepped down after forever to let another player take judge, our recent General went mad after being replaced, and our banker changes hands more often then the others however.

Banker hasn't changed very often since I took up the job, though. And, honestly, it's a !@#$ty position that I don't see Hang giving up any time soon... it gives me great incentive to find ways to make it less !@#$ty.