Author Topic: The Marrocidenian war  (Read 547476 times)

Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1635: March 18, 2013, 06:35:35 AM »
Now I remember the spy thing. But by the time he started banning people it was already clear that he would be kicked out. Plus, it was a pretty entertaining drama. It was the kind of conflict that this game should have more of, and it was only possible because he was willing to let himself be vilified. Villains = good.
I think everyone would agree it was good, but you can't expect villains to not be punished.
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Kwanstein

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1636: March 18, 2013, 06:39:06 AM »
If groups of people operated differently, people could have joined up with him and created the malignant state that I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, everyone wants to play the hero, so he was fired and instead I get to witness canned self-righteousness... oh joy.

Perth

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1637: March 18, 2013, 06:43:40 AM »
Also, random people start flaming each other for no reason. Kas accidently travelled to Overroot and everyone started insulting him and accusing him of things, then they banned him.

This is a completely inaccurate rendition of what happened.

Yeah, Kas traveled into Overroot and engaged the Zuma and it was probably an accident. However, for several reasons it was a big deal.

1) Most obviously is risked a ZUMA !@#$STORM INVADE TERRAN which has happened before.
2) It came very eerily after he had been reporting on himself contacting Haktoo trying to garner some kind of Zuma aid.
3) Also eerily after he was messaging the Strategium about some grand plan to win the war in one fell swoop by swinging the army around through Zuma lands.
4) It has been the, for some time now, an unofficial rule of Terran foreign policy to remain completely apathetic toward the Zuma. That is: to ignore them completely and utterly. Because the first era or two of Terran's history of trying to interact with them always lead to bad things happening.
5) Kas had already been stirring up tensions by trying to make power grabs and suggesting he was going to try to change the government form to allow him to appoint Lords, etc. instead of elections. Both Kale and Quintus were heavily put off by this.


Despite all of this, Kas would have been fine had he just said "Sorry, accident, I apologized to Haktoo, now I'm heading back to the Chateau to get another unit." Unfortunately, he did choose that course of action. He proceeded to make up excuses, glorify Haktoo in front of Senate, and then when he came under some heat, completely lost all of his composure and started basically name calling everyone in the realm, accusing people of corruption, etc., and finally by messaging the rulers of Dwilight with an incredibly treasonous message about the 'shadow gov't' of Terran run by "the Dukes." As if a realm's Dukes and long time members being significant and influential power players in a realm is some kind of surprise.

He was not banned for running into Zuma territory. It was his complete and utter failure to handle criticism and the resulting breakdown that saw him lose power.
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Perth

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1638: March 18, 2013, 06:46:04 AM »
If groups of people operated differently, people could have joined up with him and created the malignant state that I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, everyone wants to play the hero, so he was fired and instead I get to witness canned self-righteousness... oh joy.

It has nothing to do with being a hero. I know for a fact Hireshmont has a large information gathering ring.

It was more of a "your dirty laundry just got revealed to everyone on the continent and we sure as hell aren't letting you bring us down with you." If we were heroic, maybe we would have stood by him and tried to defend our countryman.
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- Current: Kemen (D'hara) - Past: Kerwin (Eston), Kale (Phantaria, Terran, Melodia)

Chenier

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1639: March 18, 2013, 11:45:59 AM »
The problem, as Scarlett's character in Terran has alluded to many times, is that the position is pretty redundant and powerless. I suppose unless someone with a very big personality got in there. Even then, it would be frustrating for them.

The realm is run by the Senate, and specifically those Senators who care to contribute, which means the Chief Magistrate's job is primarily foreign relations/diplomacy.... however, that is mostly de facto dominated by Hireshmont and the Elder representation in the 'Moot.

It's a thankless position with little point and not much fun. Plus you lose your landed title.

Hireshmont babysits every moot realm's diplomacy. I wasn't expecting such consequences at home, but I can believe it.

And now Mendicant quotes my forum posts at Hireshmont in letters explaining why he doesn't believe Hireshmont is serious about the surrender...

Whoop-dee-doo.

Well isn't that swell...

Terran is !@#$ed again in the ruler department. Anyone outside of Terran ever heard of Maloudi? Me thinks not. Ruler, especially when their only real power is foreign relations, should be known outside of his realm, IMO. Not going to claim Marco is a legend but he has been in every almost every realm and speaks with people while he travels, due to his business he is on, so Marco is likely known by members of every realm.

Nop, never heard of him. But then again, I never heard of most of Terran and Barca's previous rulers these days before they got elected, so...
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Anaris

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1640: March 18, 2013, 01:04:32 PM »
I think everyone would agree it was good, but you can't expect villains to not be punished.

Good RP is not ever a good enough reason to keep someone from getting what they deserve IC.

I have seen far, far too many nobles whose public RP makes quite clear that they are insane, evil, depraved, or just plain disgusting who get given high positions and allowed to continue doing whatever horrible things they're doing just because people think that their RP is good.

You know what this means? It means that the RP of everyone around them is very bad.

Villains should totally be punished. Even if that means you lose their good RP.

The only other reasonable option is for those around them to explicitly accept and endorse their villainy, and thus join them in it.
Timothy Collett

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Anaris

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1641: March 18, 2013, 01:05:34 PM »
For an RP perspective, Terran is a realm with an extremely powerful upper-level bureaucracy. Terran only works effectively with a ruler who can either serve as a moral center for the realm but who has no particular political interests, or else a ruler who is of titanic strength, will, and political acumen and can break the will of the elites.

Y'know, that reminds me very much of some other realm I once knew...can't quite put my finger on it...begins with "R"... ;D
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Scarlett

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1642: March 18, 2013, 02:08:06 PM »
Terran always seemed to me a realm set up to sort of 'get by' while the 'moot was the 'real' organization.  Short of rebellion, there is no way for any one person in Terran to get anything done. The Chief Magistrate is a vote-counter.

I've never seen a Republic work in BM without a strong central government, and both Kale and Hireshmont have (on purpose?) seen to it that that never occurs.

That's perfectly fine IC, but as a player in the realm it's made it a bit dull because all the real decisions get made by the 'moot and there is no feudal hierarchy at all. There is no reason to give a !@#$ what happens in the region next door, or who the up and coming knights are. It's just election after election and the only person who ever gets any criticism is poor Kale because his is the only job with regularly quantifiable results, even if those results (at least in this most recent case) have more to do with 'realm with no cohesion can't move as one army' and less to do with poor generalship. There isn't really even any politicking because at this point all the little mini-groups in Terran just loathe each other.

But this has been apparent forever. Terran needed to be recycled into a new realm a long time ago, but because it would have threatened the 'moot, that didn't happen. What authority does exist is typically bent toward defending the status quo and/or electing someone who won't rock the boat too much with respect to SA or the 'moot.

Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1643: March 18, 2013, 02:29:38 PM »
Just like to say, if Terran is having food issues, they are being dumb because they aren't talking with their federated partners to get some relief.
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Solari

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1644: March 18, 2013, 02:51:17 PM »
Now I remember the spy thing. But by the time he started banning people it was already clear that he would be kicked out. Plus, it was a pretty entertaining drama. It was the kind of conflict that this game should have more of, and it was only possible because he was willing to let himself be vilified. Villains = good.

He was a villain right up until the moment that he (and his OOC buddies) got caught, and then he was just another griefer, kinda-sorta abusing game mechanics to exact revenge. Don't confuse villainy with being a troll, or being chronically predisposed to betraying your own team.  ;)

Kwanstein

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1645: March 18, 2013, 02:59:46 PM »
This is a completely inaccurate rendition of what happened.

Yeah, Kas traveled into Overroot and engaged the Zuma and it was probably an accident. However, for several reasons it was a big deal.

1) Most obviously is risked a ZUMA !@#$STORM INVADE TERRAN which has happened before.
2) It came very eerily after he had been reporting on himself contacting Haktoo trying to garner some kind of Zuma aid.
3) Also eerily after he was messaging the Strategium about some grand plan to win the war in one fell swoop by swinging the army around through Zuma lands.
4) It has been the, for some time now, an unofficial rule of Terran foreign policy to remain completely apathetic toward the Zuma. That is: to ignore them completely and utterly. Because the first era or two of Terran's history of trying to interact with them always lead to bad things happening.
5) Kas had already been stirring up tensions by trying to make power grabs and suggesting he was going to try to change the government form to allow him to appoint Lords, etc. instead of elections. Both Kale and Quintus were heavily put off by this.


Despite all of this, Kas would have been fine had he just said "Sorry, accident, I apologized to Haktoo, now I'm heading back to the Chateau to get another unit." Unfortunately, he did choose that course of action. He proceeded to make up excuses, glorify Haktoo in front of Senate, and then when he came under some heat, completely lost all of his composure and started basically name calling everyone in the realm, accusing people of corruption, etc., and finally by messaging the rulers of Dwilight with an incredibly treasonous message about the 'shadow gov't' of Terran run by "the Dukes." As if a realm's Dukes and long time members being significant and influential power players in a realm is some kind of surprise.

He was not banned for running into Zuma territory. It was his complete and utter failure to handle criticism and the resulting breakdown that saw him lose power.

Ah, but you see a lot of that stuff could only be known to the highest echelons of the realm. From my point of view the debacle was solely about him making his misclick and half heartedly proposing a power grab. It would be nice for those other reasons to be laid out in game so that the people involved don't come off as vain psychopaths.

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Good RP is not ever a good enough reason to keep someone from getting what they deserve IC.

I have seen far, far too many nobles whose public RP makes quite clear that they are insane, evil, depraved, or just plain disgusting who get given high positions and allowed to continue doing whatever horrible things they're doing just because people think that their RP is good.

You know what this means? It means that the RP of everyone around them is very bad.

Villains should totally be punished. Even if that means you lose their good RP.

The only other reasonable option is for those around them to explicitly accept and endorse their villainy, and thus join them in it.

That's a matter of opinion. Mine is that RPing the hero, or the status quo maintainer, is boring and that players should strive towards more exciting things. Punishing the 'villain,' from a character's practical standpoint, doesn't make much sense when the villainy only is of no personal detriment. Erasmus was in conflict with Solaria and some peasants, which isn't much reason for the common nobles of Terran to care. One could say that it was damaging relations with Solaria, but I don't buy that explanation in a medieval setting. Other instances of crazy or malicious characters gaining power are perfectly fine from a realism standpoint. Crazies are easy to manipulate and the malicious are probably sociopaths willing to lie, cheat and bribe their way to success. It actually makes more sense for them to gain power than for the goody-two-shoes, altruistic big brother types.

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He was a villain right up until the moment that he (and his OOC buddies) got caught, and then he was just another griefer, kinda-sorta abusing game mechanics to exact revenge. Don't confuse villainy with being a troll, or being chronically predisposed to betraying your own team.

Haha, well I can't help if that's something I can relate to :P

Anaris

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1646: March 18, 2013, 03:09:10 PM »
That's a matter of opinion.

Certainly—I'm wearing my player hat here, not my dev hat :)

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Mine is that RPing the hero, or the status quo maintainer, is boring and that players should strive towards more exciting things.

That makes the assumption that "doing bad stuff" and "shaking up the status quo" are synonymous. They aren't.

In fact, most of those "villainous" characters I mentioned in my previous post were, in fact, pretty much status quo maintainers in every (or nearly every) mechanical sense: it was only in RP that they were evil, depraved, etc.

Furthermore, it's perfectly possible to RP a character who fully has the realm's interests at heart, and has no interest in stooping to dirty, underhanded methods, but also shakes up the status quo significantly.

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Punishing the 'villain,' from a character's practical standpoint, doesn't make much sense when the villainy only is of no personal detriment.

It does if the character—and the realm as a whole—has a standing RP and reputation as being upstanding and supporting Good and Right and whatnot.

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Erasmus was in conflict with Solaria and some peasants, which isn't much reason for the common nobles of Terran to care. One could say that it was damaging relations with Solaria, but I don't buy that explanation in a medieval setting.

Erm...whether or not you buy it, it's completely the truth. Solaria, and Luria in general, were very unhappy with that incident, and if Terran had tolerated it, the shape of politics and alliances since then would have been quite different: it would have been nearly impossible to get Luria to agree to do anything better than tolerate the 'moot in general, and Terran in specific, and most likely, we would have been at war with them, probably leading to their collapse much sooner.

And whether or not you would have enjoyed that outcome, it's pretty obvious that it's not something that is good for Terran.

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Other instances of crazy or malicious characters gaining power are perfectly fine from a realism standpoint. Crazies are easy to manipulate and the malicious are probably sociopaths willing to lie, cheat and bribe their way to success. It actually makes more sense for them to gain power than for the goody-two-shoes, altruistic big brother types.

It may make more sense for them to seek power, but it doesn't mean it makes more sense to hand it to them.

Like it or not, the vast majority of characters in BM are played as being relatively upstanding and of noble disposition. They dislike a bully (even if they are, themelves, bullies), they will support defense over first strike, and they generally oppose unnecessary cruelty.

Thus, someone who bullies, attacks without provocation, and wantonly slaughters the populace is likely to make a lot of enemies fast.

Again, you may think that's fun—but in terms of what's best for the realm, it's really not.
Timothy Collett

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Scarlett

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1647: March 18, 2013, 03:13:34 PM »
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Ah, but you see a lot of that stuff could only be known to the highest echelons of the realm. From my point of view the debacle was solely about him making his misclick and half heartedly proposing a power grab.

I didn't really care that he did it - bad things are going to happen when you're the boss. It's how you handle them that matters.

He screwed up royally in deciding that he was going to employ the opportunity to try and bring down all of the dukes at once. Bringing down one duke is hard enough. He decided he was going to get rid of all of them ... by referendum.

It was a pretty classic case of power-mad tantrum: ineffective lever-pulling (protesting Kale?), conspiracy theories, shouting. But then it was a wonder that the guy was ever put in charge to begin with.

vonGenf

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1648: March 18, 2013, 03:17:15 PM »
It was a pretty classic case of power-mad tantrum: ineffective lever-pulling (protesting Kale?), conspiracy theories, shouting. But then it was a wonder that the guy was ever put in charge to begin with.

Character family name is Mayhem, right?

Methinks that may have been a clue....
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1649: March 18, 2013, 03:26:24 PM »
Character family name is Mayhem, right?

Methinks that may have been a clue....
He is talking about Erasmus I believe, not Kas.
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