Author Topic: The Marrocidenian war  (Read 547263 times)

Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #645: November 21, 2012, 07:08:51 PM »


Well to be blunt, D'Hara rather chose to create this waste of time when  they declared war and overrode peace talks. Aurvandil didn't want to waste our time faffing around with D'Hara and Terran.
I assume you are talking about D'hara declaring war on Provencia, then D'harans saw that as an insult because we were firm on keeping Paisly, I believe you said something like, if you guys remain neutral, sure. Then we remained neutral, Aurvandil made Provencia in Paisly. We were pissed but dealt with it, but Machievel went and attempted a religious uprising, got arrested, and we were just like, ok I guess, then Machievel told us he was tortured and we got pissed enough to remain neutral. So were we trying to workaround the neutrality? Yeah, but torture of our most respected noble and longest standing one was not needed.
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Lanyon

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #646: November 21, 2012, 07:11:03 PM »
well maybe if you were firm on keeping Paisly...you should've actually kept it.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #647: November 21, 2012, 07:19:50 PM »
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #648: November 21, 2012, 07:24:04 PM »
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.


You mean, we can be trusted to uphold the Treaty of the Marcoccidens?

I'll take that as a compliment.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #649: November 21, 2012, 07:25:47 PM »

You mean, we can be trusted to uphold the Treaty of the Marcoccidens?

I'll take that as a compliment.

Which came at betraying your sworn neutrality.

Break one agreement to uphold another when you feel like it, yeah you're trustworthy all right when you flip flop from agreement to agreement when it suits you. (But, at least you admit you couldn't be trusted to uphold your neutrality).

Nosferatus

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #650: November 21, 2012, 07:27:13 PM »
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.

that still isn't much of a sign that you want them to stay neutral.
If you don't believe they stay neutral in the first place then you don't give it much of a chance either, if its worth it or not. (as lennon said, give peace a chance, which is needed to achieve it, to give it a chance) ;)

Its like beeing isreal (or hamas)saying we bomb gaza(or tel aviv/askhelon) because eventually the neutrality would be broken anyway.
If your goal is war in the first place, your doing a great job. (which is perfectly awesome within BM that is)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 07:29:13 PM by Nosferatus »
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NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #651: November 21, 2012, 07:29:12 PM »
that still isn't much of a sign that you want them to stay neutral.
If you don't believe they stay neutral in the first place then you don't give it much of a chance either, if its worth it or not.

Its like beeing isreal (or hamas)saying we bomb gaza(or tel aviv/askhelon) because eventually the neutrality would be broken anyway.
If your goal is war in the first place, your doing a great job.

Well, I put neutrality out there because the peace process is worth the effort, whether it's successful or not. I never expected them to uphold it, but they said they would, and that lead to Rynn making a public oath about it, which quite evidently was meaningless.

Nosferatus

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #652: November 21, 2012, 07:33:14 PM »
Well, I put neutrality out there because the peace process is worth the effort, whether it's successful or not. I never expected them to uphold it, but they said they would, and that lead to Rynn making a public oath about it, which quite evidently was meaningless.

thats clears it up, you just want war and use 'peace' negotiations just to stall the war when needed(for example if your kingdom crumbles within).
:P

But what would you have done IF they where indeed not breaking any agreement?
Attack anyway?
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egamma

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #653: November 21, 2012, 07:34:07 PM »
Which came at betraying your sworn neutrality.

Break one agreement to uphold another when you feel like it, yeah you're trustworthy all right when you flip flop from agreement to agreement when it suits you. (But, at least you admit you couldn't be trusted to uphold your neutrality).

I was the PM of D'Hara who declared war on Aurvandil. When did I promise neutrality to you, or anyone else?

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #654: November 21, 2012, 07:34:56 PM »
thats clears it up, you just want war and use 'peace' negotiations just to stall the war when needed(for example if your kingdom crumbles within).
:P

But what would you have done IF they where indeed not breaking any agreement?
Attack anyway?

The peace process ended some time before the internal collapse, and Aurvandil never stalls through diplomacy, we've never needed to.

If they had not broken the agreement, we would have continued to ignore D'Hara's existence and pursued the war with Terran and their allies.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #655: November 21, 2012, 07:35:30 PM »
I was the PM of D'Hara who declared war on Aurvandil. When did I promise neutrality to you, or anyone else?

...Rynn did.

Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #656: November 21, 2012, 07:39:04 PM »
No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.
You Aurvandilians say honor is important but when anybody else is honorable they are the worst. By our federation, we were honor bound to declare but it doesn't say, " Declare war when your army is on spread out all around your realm so your enemy can easily come in and destroy the realm with little to no resistance. You complain that the Barcans were doing peace talks but they are pretty crappy federation members because they rarely communicate anything including that so we were just going about the procedure, get the armies ready, then declare war.
Next you claim we were not being neutral, but we considered that being through the ways you asked, don't help Terran or any other realm against Aurvandil, which we did and you were supposed to give us Paisly. Then you make a realm we strictly said would not be tolerated as Paisly is ours and you even told you would give it to us, and we still remained neutral through official diplomacy and did not aid any realm against both Aurvandil, which we agreed to, and to Provencia despite the realm being a slap in the face to D'hara. Then abiding by the things said above, as I said official diplomacy, Machieval really wants Paisly so he attempts to religiously take it, gets tortured which was the last straw. Provencia picked the worst person to torture, second only to the Prime Minister, and then expects us to be alright with it. We should have declared war on it from the second it was made but we tried to be nice, while Provencia acted like Aurvandil but without the military power to stop people from  declaring war when others got fed up with them.
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Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #657: November 21, 2012, 07:40:20 PM »
...Rynn did.
He was made PM after we declared war, so the promise of neutrality he made in the future was supposed to stop us from declaring war?
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NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #658: November 21, 2012, 07:47:42 PM »
You Aurvandilians say honor is important but when anybody else is honorable they are the worst. By our federation, we were honor bound to declare but it doesn't say, " Declare war when your army is on spread out all around your realm so your enemy can easily come in and destroy the realm with little to no resistance. You complain that the Barcans were doing peace talks but they are pretty crappy federation members because they rarely communicate anything including that so we were just going about the procedure, get the armies ready, then declare war.
Next you claim we were not being neutral, but we considered that being through the ways you asked, don't help Terran or any other realm against Aurvandil, which we did and you were supposed to give us Paisly. Then you make a realm we strictly said would not be tolerated as Paisly is ours and you even told you would give it to us, and we still remained neutral through official diplomacy and did not aid any realm against both Aurvandil, which we agreed to, and to Provencia despite the realm being a slap in the face to D'hara. Then abiding by the things said above, as I said official diplomacy, Machieval really wants Paisly so he attempts to religiously take it, gets tortured which was the last straw. Provencia picked the worst person to torture, second only to the Prime Minister, and then expects us to be alright with it. We should have declared war on it from the second it was made but we tried to be nice, while Provencia acted like Aurvandil but without the military power to stop people from  declaring war when others got fed up with them.

We say honour is important, and honour isn't an excuse for invading some one else's war when they don't want you to, under the pretence of helping them.

And actually, Barca were perfectly aware of my movements a week before the invasion and we made no effort to conceal it, then our Knight Hausos arrived a day before the war declaration to inform them of the Aurvandilan intent to war and to tell them that are to provide terms on which the war is fought. Meaning Barca chooses when, where and how the war is fought, Suffete Karana refused so Aurvandil marched straight into Rettleville to punish Galvez, the Duke and the offender. As much as you would like to paint it as Aurvandil sucker punched Barca before they had a chance to defend themselves, that isn't the case.

Also I don't recall how Aurvandil was "supposed" to give  D'Hara Paisly, you refused our terms for the handover, but still declared that you would be entirely neutral.

And the fact D'Hara supports Chenier's action is the main reason why Aurvandil will now utterly waste Paisly and D'Hara, you don't support a man who abused his position as a priest to unleash a mob on a Lady, which as all reports state, would have had her raped, beaten and killed on the streets of Paisly, now this man  is also an Ambassador of D'Hara and a guest in Paisly, which makes his acts thoroughly shameful and heinous, below honour and decency. But you act as if you Ambassador did nothing wrong, despite launching an act of war and when it failed, using that act of war as an excuse for actual war under the pretence of defending yourself.

Aurvandil has had enough of D'Hara and particularly of your constant political manoeuvring.


NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #659: November 21, 2012, 07:49:52 PM »
He was made PM after we declared war, so the promise of neutrality he made in the future was supposed to stop us from declaring war?

He was the PM who signed a ceasefire agreement and then swore himself to neutrality.