The Marrocidenian war

[Penchant]

He was the PM who signed a ceasefire agreement and then swore himself to neutrality.

And we have not declared war on Aurvandil or done anything to hurt Aurvandil directly since.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

And we have not declared war on Aurvandil or done anything to hurt Aurvandil directly since.

Well, you interfered in the wars of the west (Breaking your sworn neutrality in the west) and attacked a realm that was under the protection of Aurvandil in instance that it comes under foreign attack, something D'Hara was perfectly aware of when they declared war.

[Penchant]

We say honour is important, and honour isn't an excuse for invading some one else's war when they don't want you to, under the pretence of helping them.

And actually, Barca were perfectly aware of my movements a week before the invasion and we made no effort to conceal it, then our Knight Hausos arrived a day before the war declaration to inform them of the Aurvandilan intent to war and to tell them that are to provide terms on which the war is fought. Meaning Barca chooses when, where and how the war is fought, Suffete Karana refused so Aurvandil marched straight into Rettleville to punish Galvez, the Duke and the offender. As much as you would like to paint it as Aurvandil sucker punched Barca before they had a chance to defend themselves, that isn't the case.

To your first point, that's why I said Barcans are bad federated partners, we were told Aurvandil was attacking them and so we came to their aid, they never once told us about peace talks despite considerable amounts of coordinating our armies through the halls of the Veinsormoot which  includes Barca's ruler and other high ranking members so if us aiding them was a bad idea, they could have at least mentioned it since they knew we were going to be declaring war.  To your second point, to the moot it felt like a sucker punch because as I said, Barcans don't like to communicate, I am not saying it was a sucker punch though, it's just that's how every character out of Barca and Aurvandil see it.

Also I don't recall how Aurvandil was "supposed" to give  D'Hara Paisly, you refused our terms for the handover, but still declared that you would be entirely neutral.

And the fact D'Hara supports Chenier's action is the main reason why Aurvandil will now utterly waste Paisly and D'Hara, you don't support a man who abused his position as a priest to unleash a mob on a Lady, which as all reports state, would have had her raped, beaten and killed on the streets of Paisly, now this man  is also an Ambassador of D'Hara and a guest in Paisly, which makes his acts thoroughly shameful and heinous, below honour and decency. But you act as if you Ambassador did nothing wrong, despite launching an act of war and when it failed, using that act of war as an excuse for actual war under the pretence of defending yourself.

Aurvandil has had enough of D'Hara and particularly of your constant political manoeuvring.

Next, we were told if we remain neutral we get Paisly, what terms did we refuse for the handover? Also two main points to your following paragraph, we are not saying was Machievel did was right or that it warrants cause for a war, what caused the war was the torturing of Machievel which topped off all the other things they did to piss us off. Lady Florence was in no danger of any serious harm, she would have been kicked out of the position of margrave of Paisly and Machievel would have took the position, making it D'hara's. Lady Florence's only serious damage would have been to her pride. Want to argue? Look at every other religious uprising in BM, the peasants did no serious damage to the previous holder of position.

[Penchant]

Well, you interfered in the wars of the west (Breaking your sworn neutrality in the west) and attacked a realm that was under the protection of Aurvandil in instance that it comes under foreign attack, something D'Hara was perfectly aware of when they declared war.

We swore neutrality to Aurvandil saying we would not aid either side of your war, we did not say we would remain neutral to any war in the west for one, and secondly, a nation has to actually act neutral to be neutral. If they aren't being neutral we are not the ones violating neutrality, they are.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

To your first point, that's why I said Barcans are bad federated partners, we were told Aurvandil was attacking them and so we came to their aid, they never once told us about peace talks despite considerable amounts of coordinating our armies through the halls of the Veinsormoot which  includes Barca's ruler and other high ranking members so if us aiding them was a bad idea, they could have at least mentioned it since they knew we were going to be declaring war.

Yes, well I made it clear to the 'Moot and quite concisely said "You don't need to attack, we've nearly attained peace, and attacking will remove any possibility of peace". But the Veinsormoot wasn't interested, their response was essentially "And?".

  To your second point, to the moot it felt like a sucker punch because as I said, Barcans don't like to communicate, I am not saying it was a sucker punch though, it's just that's how every character out of Barca and Aurvandil see it.  Next, we were told if we remain neutral we get Paisly, what terms did we refuse for the handover? Also two main points to your following paragraph, we are not saying was Machievel did was right or that it warrants cause for a war, what caused the war was the torturing of Machievel which topped off all the other things they did to piss us off. Lady Florence was in no danger of any serious harm, she would have been kicked out of the position of margrave of Paisly and Machievel would have took the position, making it D'hara's. Lady Florence's only serious damage would have been to her pride. Want to argue? Look at every other religious uprising in BM, the peasants did no serious damage to the previous holder of position.

I asked D'Hara to actually become diplomatically neutral (Within reason) for the duration of the war, as a gesture of genuine neutrality because simply declaring "I am going to be neutral" isn't enough. Upon completing these conditions Aurvandil would have no issue handing over Paisly, of course D'Hara could just then break their neutrality, but it will have lost them a lot of diplomatic face and grace with other realms. There was no consequence for D'Hara breaking their sworn neutrality because they never made themselves diplomatically neutral but continued to politically position themselves amongst their allies, who were fully supportive of their move, so they broke their word with no negative diplomatic repercussions whatsoever, which Mendicant stated was the reason why he wouldn't hand Paisly over just on the basis that D'Hara has sworn itself to neutrality. As Rynn was too much of a politician to actually be trusted to hold his word after dicking Aurvandil about one time too many times with their attempts to play both sides of the war for profit.

Also, Rynn did defend what Machiavel said, declaring it perfectly justified and saying D'Hara stood by it. And your other point is purely OOC, IC a mob of religious fanatics attack a largely undefended lady in her estate at the whims of an Ambassador with the intent to drive her out and lynch her, and when this was put forward on the rulers channel D'Hara didn't deny this was the case, but instead defended it as perfectly justified to drag her out kill/rape/beat/lynch Lady Florence. And when you don't deny something, but defend and justify it, that is admitting it did happen but trying to defend why you did it.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

We swore neutrality to Aurvandil saying we would not aid either side of your war, we did not say we would remain neutral to any war in the west for one, and secondly, a nation has to actually act neutral to be neutral. If they aren't being neutral we are not the ones violating neutrality, they are.

I'm quite sure Rynn very clearly said "no interference in the wars in the west" in those exact terms.

And what exactly did the Provincia do to attack D'Hara? Torture Machiavel? Well that comes after Machiavel attacked the Provincia under the guise of diplomatic immunity as an Ambassador, so D'Hara struck first and through a thoroughly reprehensible and dishonourable way.

[egamma]

And what exactly did the Provincia do to attack D'Hara?

Occupy Paisly.

[Indirik]

Damn anarchists... them and their "Occupy" movements...

[Stabbity]

I hate to say it but both sides are somewhat right. D'hara did dick dance all around peace talks and even an alliance with Aurvandil to get Paisly back. As far as I'm concerned D'hara deserved to lose Paisly and it was perfectly legitimate. No agreement was kept and thus Aurvandil was not under any sort of obligation to not take Paisly.  Now D'hara hasn't ceeded claim to Paisly in any of this, and of course a new realm on their claimed territory is going to provoke war. Neither side has a right to whine. Both of you are right and both of you are wrong.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Wop nom glaumring style 

[Chenier]

No, I mean when D'Hara originally declared war starting this whole affair from the beginning. Their declaration of war on the Provincia was a given, D'Hara could never be trusted to uphold their sworn neutrality in the first place.

Sworn neutrality my ass. We made it clear from day one that D'Hara would not tolerate a foreign polity in Paisly.

[Ehndras]

For the record, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about regarding D'haran attitudes because you saw it from Aurvandil's side which obviously was not involved in the internal affairs of D'hara and Terran, Noblesse.

Rynn and D'hara completely went neutral for a significant portion of time, giving absolutely no aid to allied forces, which caused great strife between Alura and Rynn,  and nearly ruined their relationship. Pissed us the hell off, it did. I was ready to write off D'hara at one point. Rynn was very hopeful and dedicated to stay neutral and I very pointedly remember the inconsistencies in Mendicant's actions and words being the cause of strife. Not to mention the supposed Lurian supporters who were working for Mendicant behind the scenes, though that's all speculation and pointless. Hell, Alura has contacts in every nation on the continent, that doesn't mean their entire nations are allies or even friendly with Alura (or Terran for that matter), it just means she has a lot of friends. So, on that token, the Lurian thing is just hearsay and can't really be used against Mendy, sadly. Anyway, the point is, Rynn and D'hara in fact WERE neutral, and as much as I tried I couldn't convince them to do otherwise. If it weren't for certain events and things said by Mendicant, the neutrality would have continued. The Provincia thing though was the final !@#$-you. Even with the neutrality ended, D'hara was still not going to re-join the war until that little insult came to be. It completely changed our plans and really brought the entire coalition together, so thank you for giving Rynn an excuse to marry Alura sooner than planned and bring the armies of D'hara to Paisly.

Also, for the record, Barca is horrible at communicating. Despite being a Marshal and then Ruler, I heard absolutely nothing about peace talks, and when it was finally mentioned (and far too late, might I add!), absolutely no details were given. Peace talks should ALWAYS be occurring - that doesn't mean anything's actually happening. Unless we heard from Barca that there was progress in the peace talks and they asked us to back off, it might as well be another empty Gaza Strip trick. Quite the contrary, Barca ran to us and asked us to get involved so we did, and then bailed on us. I literally sent messages to multiple Barcan nobles who, as Aurvandil was closing in, DECIDED TO LEAVE THE REGION. Who the hell LEAVES the gathered armies of the allied forces defending YOUR territory right as the enemy arrives? And not one of them ever bothered to reply to my messages. I have to admit, that was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in over a decade playing strategy-war games online. Then, Barca's General went MIA, no one would reply to our damn messages, and we figured Barca had collapsed from within. Next thing I know there's Zuma around and they're coming back to life, and I just scratched my head and wondered what the hell happened in the time they were silent. Barca's leader is actually sort of communicating in the Moot now, once in a blue moon, which is literally the most I've ever heard from Barca in the time I've been playing. I really want to trust and believe in Barca but they've not shown me much reason to. Hell, I've more faith in Asylon's ability to remain (in-)consistent right now than I do in Barca, and that's just sad.

A lot of things could have gone differently... A lot of things.

[Anaris]

Sworn neutrality my ass. We made it clear from day one that D'Hara would not tolerate a foreign polity in Paisly.

Well, here's the question, I think, Chénier: can you be absolutely certain that Rynn never promised something utterly boneheaded to them, and didn't fully inform the realm of it? Because our impression of him in Luria suggests that he might do just that...

[Chenier]

Well, you interfered in the wars of the west (Breaking your sworn neutrality in the west) and attacked a realm that was under the protection of Aurvandil in instance that it comes under foreign attack, something D'Hara was perfectly aware of when they declared war.

I thought you said they were "neutral".

Make up your mind. D'Hara didn't attack you. It merely reclaimed its city from Quadvrium#2. Florence could have tried to appease us, rather she pissed us off every chance she got. And her realm paid the price for it.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I remember a time when D'Hara was going to ally with Aurvandiil but Vellos in Terran hated Aurvandiil so much it wasn't allowed to happen. I remember D'Hara was going to be a launch point for Aurvandiil to attack north. Good thing that never happened... But to think D'Hara even entertaining the thought and so recently!