Author Topic: The Marrocidenian war  (Read 547281 times)

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #840: December 13, 2012, 09:59:01 PM »
Dear... that really touched me. How in the world such altruistic and philanthropist person becomes an absolute monarch? That's indeed a great deed and explains the nature of your character's name. In fact, maybe you should call him Mendiant ("Beggar" in French) as it's clear you find virtue in spreading gold for "poor third world realms". Real world would be a better place if there would be more Aurvandils and Mendicants around.  :P

How does one become a Monarch (Mendicant is a limited Monarch, but everyone pretends otherwise)  without being generous with their gold? A good liege is a gold giver, one who rewards service and shares his wealth. Of course, it was considered important for Medieval monarchs to be generous with their gold. But, for Mendicant it has nothing to do with altruism or philanthropy, merely flashing the cash by treating it with contempt and derision. Mendicant's treasury didn't get reckoned to be eternal by him not being profligate with it, after all. A king must wealthier than any other and more generous as well, after all.

So that means you... would have given them back or not? If your own regions were unable to feed the "Grandiose Armée", it would be inconvenient to return them to their original owners I guess. Was it the case? Hmm, it's curious how the worth of some regions can change so drastically. But I agree with you, the skilled Aurvandilian cartographers showed everyone in Dwilight a very interesting vision of its geography. How did you manage to teach them how to use Paint so nicely?

It is the Royaliste Campagne de L'armée rather than the "Grandiose Armée" which I think should be Grande Armée anyway, and never ever ever IC call us "Aurvandilian" it won't go down well, at best we tolerate Aurvandilan, but we expect to be called Orvandeaux.

But it means, that whilst Mendicant said he was happy to hand them over, I was rather glad the Veinsormoot didn't make me live up to that obligation. It would have been... inconvenient.

So, apart from the renewed value of the marches in the Mendicontinent, the other condition was for Barca to solve the corruption issues? And that is because... you dislike corruption wherever it comes up? Moreover, maybe to be completely accurate to your comment about vassals and self-sufficiency, we shouldn't see any green sign in Aurvandil diplomatic relations. Oh well, maybe you are in peace with other realms just to spread generosity all over Dwilight.  ;D

It's because Mendicant doesn't like corrupt Republics, it's an offence to his sense of decency and good governance. And he would otherwise feel obligated to liberate such people from the tyrannical corruption of their Republic, such as what the Orvandeaux had to suffer in the Madinian Republic. It's also because the Barcan's put up gold for the death of Mendicant, which was an attack upon the Monarchy and thus we demanded action in Barca.

So what was so corrupt about Barca? I have heard plenty of times from you that they are corrupt but never how they are corrupt. It's like if you were an employer and told an employee, "Look at all these problems with you. If you don't want to be fired you better fix them." They have no idea what is wrong them in your eyes and thus no way to fix whatever is supposedly wrong.

Something about corrupt dukes, electoral tyranny, unjust banishments and a Senatorial old guard hoarding power and offering gold for the death of rival politicians and lords in Barca that caused the northern marches to defect to Aurvandil, to seek sanctuary from the Barcan political system that tried to have them killed, banished and marginalised.

I told them what was wrong in Barca, and what I wanted changing, but left it up to them to decide how they wanted to do it. Suffice to say, they didn't think of anything and instead wasted Mendicant's time and then acted offended when we weren't pleased.

Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #841: December 13, 2012, 10:43:08 PM »
To your last paragraph, I believe that's where the issue came in. I have only heard that you complained about corruption without saying what was corrupt thus they didn't know what to fix. I read everything on the Dwilight board that was posted at that time and that was the similar OOC things I was hearing. Honestly what you did was really idiotic if you didn't intend for it to happen the way it did, as I doubt you have any solutions, because there aren't any solutions really.
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NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #842: December 13, 2012, 11:49:25 PM »
Which meant Barca could literally do anything they liked about it, aside from nothing.

Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #843: December 14, 2012, 01:14:06 AM »
Which meant Barca could literally do anything they liked about it, aside from nothing.
whats one thing they could have done?
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Lychaon

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #844: December 14, 2012, 01:14:42 AM »
It is the Royaliste Campagne de L'armée rather than the "Grandiose Armée" which I think should be Grande Armée anyway, and never ever ever IC call us "Aurvandilian" it won't go down well, at best we tolerate Aurvandilan, but we expect to be called Orvandeaux.

But it means, that whilst Mendicant said he was happy to hand them over, I was rather glad the Veinsormoot didn't make me live up to that obligation. It would have been... inconvenient.

Please excuse me if I rather to use (ever ever ever) "Aurvandilian" in this forum. I think you don't, but I like to write as a player rather than a character. I think you have used some much more disrespectful words to talk about the realm my character is from. Moreover, some other of your realm-mates compared Aurvandil with Rome, and Dwilight as its Carthague; I think you don't need another player to compare you with nothing less than the mighty army of Napoleon. You can do it yourself if you like. And as far as I know, "grandiose" is a correctly written French word.  :D

What does "Royaliste Campagne de l'Armée" mean? Royal Campaign of the Army? Maybe I'm wrong, but "Armée Royaliste de Campagne" maybe fits better if you call that the army, rather than a certain campaign in a war.

Regarding the devolution of the regions, I think Aurvandilians found a candy that just came free. I find a little bit inconsistent the IC argument you used however. If you like to play Mendicant arrogant and disdainful towards anything out of the Mendicontinent, I'd expect him to just don't care about what a neighbour realm does with its government. You have called Barcans "the most servile people", "poor third world realm"... but some of them deserve your mercy if you can impose the changes you want in their politics.

About the bounty on Mendicant's head, I'm not sure but I think last time I saw it, there were about 900 gold coins on it. I'm sure it was a good amount, so I guess not just Barcans (if the first bounty was put by some of them) would like to see Mendicant's head on a silver bowl. It's not so bad, just another kind of notoriety that you like to feed as it seems.

In conclusion, I guess you could keep by force those regions, so you kept them. You did well, they resulted to be indispensable as your regions were "god awful producers of barely anything". Anyway a very important part in this game is about intrigue, propaganda, etc. so you invented an IC argument that could show Aurvandilians' power over another realm apart from military issues. That match with your taste for humiliation. Perfectly acceptable, but in my opinion even a little bit rude.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #845: December 14, 2012, 02:00:09 AM »
Please excuse me if I rather to use (ever ever ever) "Aurvandilian" in this forum. I think you don't, but I like to write as a player rather than a character. I think you have used some much more disrespectful words to talk about the realm my character is from. Moreover, some other of your realm-mates compared Aurvandil with Rome, and Dwilight as its Carthague; I think you don't need another player to compare you with nothing less than the mighty army of Napoleon. You can do it yourself if you like. And as far as I know, "grandiose" is a correctly written French word.  :D

Oh don't worry about it, I was just saying it for future reference, we take exception to Aurvandilian and believe it to be a hideous denonym worthy of revilement.

And I don't think I have used disrespectful words to talk about Barca, per se, but I have said disrespectful things, mostly to an extent to be facetious or light heartedly antagonistic, but I don't know if that comes across as much as I think it does.

What does "Royaliste Campagne de l'Armée" mean? Royal Campaign of the Army? Maybe I'm wrong, but "Armée Royaliste de Campagne" maybe fits better if you call that the army, rather than a certain campaign in a war.

I forget, French isn't high up on my list of foreign languages I've made an attempt to learn. Which I should probably correct if I am imitating it in BM, though the use of French in Aurvandil is mostly to give a ... feel of Frenchiness rather than to be specifically accurate.

Regarding the devolution of the regions, I think Aurvandilians found a candy that just came free. I find a little bit inconsistent the IC argument you used however. If you like to play Mendicant arrogant and disdainful towards anything out of the Mendicontinent, I'd expect him to just don't care about what a neighbour realm does with its government. You have called Barcans "the most servile people", "poor third world realm"... but some of them deserve your mercy if you can impose the changes you want in their politics.

Mendicant is disdainful of everything, in the Mendicontinent and otherwise, he's the Highest of Sovereign's, very little in this world is worthy of him and he likes to make that clear. However, he also deigns to partake in chivalry and and pursuit of war and honour thereof, which means he must look to his borders as a Monarch can hardly take part in "private wars" as were popular in France during the age, not that the game mechanics would support such a thing sadly. As a note, Barca and Aurvandil almost held a special relationship, they both grew up alongside each other in hardship with mutual support, and Barca were considered the friends of Aurvandil, though they refused an alliance. In short, Mendicant doesn't care on a personal level, but every now and then he sort of has to pretend to care on a professional level and do his duties as a ruler which includes ensuring the borders of the Commonwealth don't have a dangerous and corrupt Republic on its borders.

But it wasn't until Mendicant was personally insulted on multiple occasions that he actually began to care on a personal level, thus the war was started.  He had to march to defend his name and honour and seek redress from those who would sully it so unjustly, and to his face.

Just to clarify to you, Mendicant has referred to Barca as a "most servile people" whilst I the player have called them a third world country (As you said I never really make myself clear on the distinction sometimes)  but to answer your point, there was a time when Aurvandil believed Barca was worth saving and defending, and that was before they drew on the benevolence and protection of Haktoo, and it is then that Mendicant declared them a rogue non-state and a most servile people undeserving of the treatment of a genuine, legitimate realm.

About the bounty on Mendicant's head, I'm not sure but I think last time I saw it, there were about 900 gold coins on it. I'm sure it was a good amount, so I guess not just Barcans (if the first bounty was put by some of them) would like to see Mendicant's head on a silver bowl. It's not so bad, just another kind of notoriety that you like to feed as it seems.

The Barcan's started the bounty, though now it is at a good 1800, Mendicant has surpassed even senior controversial figures such as Allison, clearly he must be doing something right.

In conclusion, I guess you could keep by force those regions, so you kept them. You did well, they resulted to be indispensable as your regions were "god awful producers of barely anything". Anyway a very important part in this game is about intrigue, propaganda, etc. so you invented an IC argument that could show Aurvandilians' power over another realm apart from military issues. That match with your taste for humiliation. Perfectly acceptable, but in my opinion even a little bit rude.

On an OOC level, we wanted the regions, on an IC level we were happy to give them back, that is where the inconsistencies come from.

And Aurvandil despises humiliation, Mendicant has made it clear our "path of conquest" is where we defeat our foes, but not humiliate them, where we best them but not conquer them.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #846: December 14, 2012, 02:00:56 AM »
whats one thing they could have done?

Oh I don't know, scribbled on a piece of toast?

Hroppa

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #847: December 14, 2012, 02:11:33 AM »
My french is rusty, but I believe campagne... means countryside. So your army there is called the Royal Countryside of the Army.

Penchant

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #848: December 14, 2012, 02:27:33 AM »
Oh I don't know, scribbled on a piece of toast?
So you wanted to have them do something so you could say you dealt with it, to your realm. Made that a bit more obvious and we wouldn't be in this situation though it is a fun one.
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Chenier

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #849: December 14, 2012, 02:41:58 AM »
What does "Royaliste Campagne de l'Armée" mean? Royal Campaign of the Army? Maybe I'm wrong, but "Armée Royaliste de Campagne" maybe fits better if you call that the army, rather than a certain campaign in a war.

It means "Royalist Campagne of the Army". Which, imo, means nothing. It's best to consider it as mock-French. Pretty much all of the "French" they use doesn't mean a thing, and even google translate would probably yield better French.

My french is rusty, but I believe campagne... means countryside. So your army there is called the Royal Countryside of the Army.

Yes. It means countryside. However, as countryside, it's a noun, not an adjective. Royalist means the same in English as in French. And as such, it makes no sense here.
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vonGenf

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #850: December 14, 2012, 09:23:16 AM »
My french is rusty, but I believe campagne... means countryside. So your army there is called the Royal Countryside of the Army.


"Campagne militaire" = "Military campaign".

Literally, it does mean countryside or fields; it can be used both as in "field of corn" or as in "field army".
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:43:24 AM by vonGenf »
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vonGenf

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #851: December 14, 2012, 09:30:11 AM »
I forget, French isn't high up on my list of foreign languages I've made an attempt to learn. Which I should probably correct if I am imitating it in BM, though the use of French in Aurvandil is mostly to give a ... feel of Frenchiness rather than to be specifically accurate.

If you're interested:

Cour Impériale De La Noblesse De Chevalerie -> More or less grammatical, although it's a weird construction.
Assemblée de Royal Sovereign l'armée du Haut -> Assemblée Royale Souveraine de l'Armée du Haut
Royaliste Campagne de L'armée -> Armée de Campagne Royaliste
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> I assume you mean "King's household"? The it would be Gardes Impériaux de la Chancellerie
Orvandeaux Battaillon Etrangere -> Bataillon Etranger d'Orvandeaux
Caraque de la sang -> Caraque du Sang or Caraque de Sang
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Poliorketes

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #852: December 14, 2012, 10:03:47 AM »
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> I assume you mean "King's household"? The it would be Gardes Impériaux de la Chancellerie... or maybe -> Gardes Impériaux de la Maison du Roi?

I think I had a funken book about the French Army in the seven years war... It had some cool units names...  8)

vonGenf

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #853: December 14, 2012, 10:15:40 AM »
or maybe -> Gardes Impériaux de la Maison du Roi?

Yep, that works too.

Then there's the problem of deciding if you're an emperor or a king. It sounds like imperial guards are guarding the king, which would mean the king is a prisoner.....
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Vellos

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #854: December 14, 2012, 10:41:45 AM »
Have not read all the details.

But I did see NoblesseChevalier claim he told Barca what was wrong.

That's either an outright OOC lie, or the Barcan characters are all exceptionally secretive. Consider the fact that, to this day, no member of the Moot has ever gone on record in any sense documenting having ever received any message from any authority in Aurvandil identifying a definition of "corruption" or any method to resolve it.

Let's consider the situation here.

3 nobles with family histories very, very similar to many nobles in Aurvandil all show up in Barca. They all know each other. They never participate in realm politics except to make similar complaints about military matters. They demand to have their own army, and support each other in elections. They have pro-Aurvandil politics to a strangely high degree.

Then when there is a political attempt to reduce their influence ("corruption" or "politics," eye of the beholder), they all change their allegiance to Aurvandil, simultaneous with Aurvandil reneging on the treaty that allowed it to beat Madina and hold Evanburg undisturbed despite Barca's claim and the Moot's support of that claim.

Mendicant then states that he will not return the regions or discipline the nobles involved because Barca is corrupt. When asked to specify the corruption, the only example he gives is that some nobles set bounties on other nobles (which is a pretty low bar for corruption in BM if you ask me). When asked what he proposes to be done about it, he offers no answer. When asked why he gives no answer, he states that Barca is beneath him. Why is Barca beneath him? Because he's the supreme sovereign or whatever.

And as supreme sovereign (Moot's internal reasoning here, which, when presented to Mendicant ICly, he took offense at and, instead of responding to the argument, quibbled over perceived effrontery), Mendicant redrew maps to redefine established geography to include those lands as part of his fundamentally sovereign lands. He had already announced the intention to form a realm in Madina (another monarchy).

Then, while the issue was growing, he shows up and crushes Barca with a giant army rather out of the blue, offending their republican institutions while he's at it. He continues to demand changes but won't say what. Meanwhile, he refuses to conduct collective negotiations with the Moot, and actively and concretely attempts to engineer separate peaces with different Moot realms.

In sum:
Our logic was clear. We see a monarch with a repeated pattern of expansionism and a worldview fundamentally incompatible with ours. We see rampant disrespect of claims and treaty law, the bedrocks of our system. We see a military force which knows no respect for diplomacy. We see obscure demands made and massive punishment when they are not met. We see a rhetoric of generosity combined with a massive display of force. We see active efforts which amount to the sowing of dissension among Moot realms.

In sum, it looks pretty darn like a massive plot to divide and conquer the Moot, replacing the Republican southwest with a Monarchist southwest (see: Provincia di Fiorenza). Maybe we were wrong– that's possible. I'm just saying that given the facts as they were, our logic was not faulty– it made quite a bit of sense (and, I think, still does).

Maybe our reasoning was wrong, that's entirely possible. But
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