Author Topic: The Marrocidenian war  (Read 547174 times)

Vellos

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #855: December 14, 2012, 10:46:35 AM »
Something about corrupt dukes, electoral tyranny, unjust banishments and a Senatorial old guard hoarding power and offering gold for the death of rival politicians and lords in Barca that caused the northern marches to defect to Aurvandil, to seek sanctuary from the Barcan political system that tried to have them killed, banished and marginalised.

I told them what was wrong in Barca, and what I wanted changing, but left it up to them to decide how they wanted to do it. Suffice to say, they didn't think of anything and instead wasted Mendicant's time and then acted offended when we weren't pleased.

"Electoral tyranny"– which didn't exist and is a non sequitur to begin with
"Corrupt dukes"– wherein corruption consisted of, as I recall, not subsidizing the "Freikorps" army (oh and picking a nazi-associated army name in a game based in Germany was really unfortunate too)
"Unjust banishments"– you mean like for expressing loyalty to a different realm and threatening to secede (eventually doing so)
"Old guard hoarding power"– Welcome to Battlemaster
"Offering [bounties]"– You have a point on this, if it's true– and I gather some Barcans did in fact confess to this. But if they didn't actually confess, then you can't prove it– bounties are anonymous

Giving a list of words does not mean you told someone what was wrong.

And there's a fundamental contradiction in saying that you told them "what [you] wanted changing" and your earlier presumption of detached superiority and non-involvement. You can't have it both ways. Either you had an interventionist intent or you did not.
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NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #856: December 14, 2012, 11:53:22 AM »
So you wanted to have them do something so you could say you dealt with it, to your realm. Made that a bit more obvious and we wouldn't be in this situation though it is a fun one.

I did make it obvious, I said in clear terms do something, anything, just show that you're doing something about it and I'll be satisfied the corruption isn't going to be a future issue for Aurvandil. I also hinted strongly that I wanted judicial trials but Barca dismissed that as a waste of time.

It means "Royalist Campagne of the Army". Which, imo, means nothing. It's best to consider it as mock-French. Pretty much all of the "French" they use doesn't mean a thing, and even google translate would probably yield better French.

Yes. It means countryside. However, as countryside, it's a noun, not an adjective. Royalist means the same in English as in French. And as such, it makes no sense here.

Yes well Orvandeaux (The language of Aurvandil) is mock French, as put above it's to give you a taster for roleplay purposes, not to be specifically accurate. I would thank you to not be so critical of our efforts.

If you're interested:

Cour Impériale De La Noblesse De Chevalerie -> More or less grammatical, although it's a weird construction.
Assemblée de Royal Sovereign l'armée du Haut -> Assemblée Royale Souveraine de l'Armée du Haut
Royaliste Campagne de L'armée -> Armée de Campagne Royaliste
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> I assume you mean "King's household"? The it would be Gardes Impériaux de la Chancellerie
Orvandeaux Battaillon Etrangere -> Bataillon Etranger d'Orvandeaux
Caraque de la sang -> Caraque du Sang or Caraque de Sang

Thank you for the clarification, naturally the French would order their grammar differently to the English.

For Rois Proprietaire, I got that of Wikipedia I think (Reputable as ever) and I think it's meant to be "King's Imperial Household Guard".

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #857: December 14, 2012, 12:04:49 PM »
Have not read all the details.

But I did see NoblesseChevalier claim he told Barca what was wrong.

That's either an outright OOC lie, or the Barcan characters are all exceptionally secretive. Consider the fact that, to this day, no member of the Moot has ever gone on record in any sense documenting having ever received any message from any authority in Aurvandil identifying a definition of "corruption" or any method to resolve it.

I did, I explained it in great detail and I'm sure I even sent a letter explaining it to Terran, though my memory might be faulty there. I told them step by step, what I saw was wrong, and what I was told was wrong. Anything less would be inefficient.


3 nobles with family histories very, very similar to many nobles in Aurvandil all show up in Barca. They all know each other. They never participate in realm politics except to make similar complaints about military matters. They demand to have their own army, and support each other in elections. They have pro-Aurvandil politics to a strangely high degree.

!@#$ing Prussians for you then eh?

Mendicant then states that he will not return the regions or discipline the nobles involved because Barca is corrupt. When asked to specify the corruption, the only example he gives is that some nobles set bounties on other nobles (which is a pretty low bar for corruption in BM if you ask me). When asked what he proposes to be done about it, he offers no answer. When asked why he gives no answer, he states that Barca is beneath him. Why is Barca beneath him? Because he's the supreme sovereign or whatever.

Mendicant said he wouldn't discipline the nobles because they swore themselves to him and where thus under his protection, he didn't say he wouldn't return the regions but did say he would be happy to hand them over on a condition.

When did Mendicant give no answer because Barca was beneath him? That... never, ever happened. And Mendicant did make proposals, but made it clear at the same time he was speculating and wasn't in a position to actually tell them what to do about it.

And as supreme sovereign (Moot's internal reasoning here, which, when presented to Mendicant ICly, he took offense at and, instead of responding to the argument, quibbled over perceived effrontery), Mendicant redrew maps to redefine established geography to include those lands as part of his fundamentally sovereign lands. He had already announced the intention to form a realm in Madina (another monarchy).

Actually the maps were created some time before this.

And the realm in Madina is not a Monarchy, the Averothoi despise Monarchy having overthrown a monarchy in Averoth, they're a Freestate, not a Monarchy. This could not have been made more apparent.

Then, while the issue was growing, he shows up and crushes Barca with a giant army rather out of the blue, offending their republican institutions while he's at it. He continues to demand changes but won't say what. Meanwhile, he refuses to conduct collective negotiations with the Moot, and actively and concretely attempts to engineer separate peaces with different Moot realms.

Mendicant invaded Rettleville because the Duke threatened him with war and insulted him on several occasions, to Mendicant's face, in his own Palais. Aurvandil thus had a quarrel with the Duke and we sort redress in combat, think of it as a duel as was the dynamic of the war.

I never tried to engineer separate peace's with the Moot until after they declared war, before that I made it clear to all of them as a group that I wanted to avoid a war.

In sum:
Our logic was clear. We see a monarch with a repeated pattern of expansionism and a worldview fundamentally incompatible with ours. We see rampant disrespect of claims and treaty law, the bedrocks of our system. We see a military force which knows no respect for diplomacy. We see obscure demands made and massive punishment when they are not met. We see a rhetoric of generosity combined with a massive display of force. We see active efforts which amount to the sowing of dissension among Moot realms.

Yes, I suppose I agree, that is an accurate way to see things.

In sum, it looks pretty darn like a massive plot to divide and conquer the Moot, replacing the Republican southwest with a Monarchist southwest (see: Provincia di Fiorenza). Maybe we were wrong– that's possible. I'm just saying that given the facts as they were, our logic was not faulty– it made quite a bit of sense (and, I think, still does).

Maybe our reasoning was wrong, that's entirely possible. But

Mendicant spent too much time trying to befriend Barca and D'Hara to have ever wanted to divide and conquer the Moot. Hell, he even tried being friends with Terran but they didn't want to know and snubbed him utterly.

Lychaon

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #858: December 14, 2012, 12:58:51 PM »
I won't say anything about the ever-lasting "Barcan corruption" issue, as I rather to read what the protagonists involved have to say about it. But if Mendicant protected some rebelled nobles from a realm with which he wanted some kind of peace, that's not a very honourable way of doing politics. Even worse if they really acted in the way Vellos describes. If that's accurate, he protected traitors that acted very strangely towards the realm they joined in first instance. That's not what I would expect from a king that insists so pompously on proving how superior is.

By "!@#$ing Prussians" you mean the Freikorps, it's true that army was crated in the 18th Century. That reminds me of a post I read some time ago about the "generous" use a player did of the swastikas, which are symbols present in ancient cultures from Asia, and even used by the Roman Empire and other Italic peoples before them. I think you won't deny this symbol can't be any more taken out of its recent context, so maybe you are playing down too much about an army that supported the nazism in its more recent history.

This topic is kind of becoming the playground where non-Aurvandilian players seek for an explanation for how things turned out at some point. I've done it myself, and truth is Mendicant's player can use whatever IC argument likes to prove them they're "wrong", but Mendicant did what he liked as he liked (OOC they wanted to keep the regions). If every participant likes that kind of conversation, and likes Medicant to have OOC notoriety, keep on. If I say this is because sometimes it seems there's actually tension in this topic. I guess you knew that, but maybe somebody saves some time with this  ;)



Chenier

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #859: December 14, 2012, 01:12:08 PM »
If you're interested:

Cour Impériale De La Noblesse De Chevalerie -> More or less grammatical, although it's a weird construction.
Assemblée de Royal Sovereign l'armée du Haut -> Assemblée Royale Souveraine de l'Armée du Haut
Royaliste Campagne de L'armée -> Armée de Campagne Royaliste
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> I assume you mean "King's household"? The it would be Gardes Impériaux de la Chancellerie
Orvandeaux Battaillon Etrangere -> Bataillon Etranger d'Orvandeaux
Caraque de la sang -> Caraque du Sang or Caraque de Sang

Litterally?

Cour Impériale De La Noblesse De Chevalerie -> Imperial court of the nobility of chivalry
Assemblée de Royal Sovereign l'armée du Haut -> Assembly of royal sovereign the army of the high (the highlands? the top?)
Royaliste Campagne de L'armée -> Countryside royalist of the army / Campaign royalist of the army
Rois Propriétaire Gardes Impériaux -> Owner kings imperial guards
Orvandeaux Battaillon Etrangere -> Foreign (lack of accents) bataillon (improper gender) Orvandeaux
Caraque de la sang -> Carrack of the (improper gender) blood.

I'm not even sure what any of these are meant to mean, as a native French speaker. It's not only the improper placement of words, it's also the choice of words.

For Rois Proprietaire, I got that of Wikipedia I think (Reputable as ever) and I think it's meant to be "King's Imperial Household Guard".

A google search for "Rois Proprietaire" in wikipedia yielded no results. If it's some expression, I'm not aware of it. It just sounds awful, either way. It litterally means "owner kings", with king plural and owner not. The sole mentions of "roi propriétaire" that I found are references to "owning" king, as opposed to a king consort, which would remain an ugly expression but make sense and be appropriate.
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Poliorketes

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #860: December 14, 2012, 01:18:57 PM »
Yep, that works too.

Then there's the problem of deciding if you're an emperor or a king. It sounds like imperial guards are guarding the king, which would mean the king is a prisoner.....

One can dream!  8)

I think the Aurvandilian don't use French, they murder it!!!  ;D

Nosferatus

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #861: December 14, 2012, 01:22:41 PM »
One can dream!  8)

I think the Aurvandilian don't use French, they murder it!!!  ;D

Or just call it Mendirench
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Norrel

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #862: December 14, 2012, 01:24:56 PM »
I find it quite strange that you guys put forward the effort to draw up new maps and come up with weird philosophical ideas and all that and not check over your obviously butchered French when that's what your realm's culture is identified as, apart from having the worst diplomacy in BM. Was there seriously not a single person in Aurv who took it in high school? I think Google translate would've done an infinitely better job.
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Poliorketes

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #863: December 14, 2012, 01:30:39 PM »
I find it quite strange that you guys put forward the effort to draw up new maps and come up with weird philosophical ideas and all that and not check over your obviously butchered French when that's what your realm's culture is identified as, apart from having the worst diplomacy in BM. Was there seriously not a single person in Aurv who took it in high school? I think Google translate would've done an infinitely better job.

I'm sorry, but I think they WANT to butcher it. They don't want French, they want Mendifrench!!!  ::)

...Another reason for the total annihilation of the Aurvandil realm!  ;D

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #864: December 14, 2012, 02:14:02 PM »
I find it quite strange that you guys put forward the effort to draw up new maps and come up with weird philosophical ideas and all that and not check over your obviously butchered French when that's what your realm's culture is identified as, apart from having the worst diplomacy in BM. Was there seriously not a single person in Aurv who took it in high school? I think Google translate would've done an infinitely better job.

Well, we enjoy debating philosophy and chivalry and promoting those ideas, it plays an important in character function that everyone can take part in. The same cannot be said for our French, we don't use French in any real amount and we just use it for army names,  government departments, ship names, councils etc to give a feel of things I'm quite sure to use it any more, or to put much more emphasis on knowing or using French would be close to excluding the rest in the realm who don't speak French. It's the same reason why we have our councils in French, but not our realm government titles.

And I took French in Secondary School (Not GCSE level, the non optional beginner French before that), it just so happens they don't teach you any real French, just phrases and words, the alphabet, numbers, pronounciation etc. So nothing with any real application in Battlemaster. French is on my "to learn" list of languages it is however, far down on that list. It was google translate that gave us such awful French.

I'm sorry, but I think they WANT to butcher it. They don't want French, they want Mendifrench!!!  ::)

...Another reason for the total annihilation of the Aurvandil realm!  ;D


Real French isn't good enough for Mendicant. Hail to the barely understandable Mendifrench.


NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #865: December 14, 2012, 02:23:21 PM »
"Electoral tyranny"– which didn't exist and is a non sequitur to begin with

Not at all, it existed. The corruption of elections to enforce tyranny.

"Corrupt dukes"– wherein corruption consisted of, as I recall, not subsidizing the "Freikorps" army (oh and picking a nazi-associated army name in a game based in Germany was really unfortunate too)

The corrupt dukes were hoarding land, colluding together to control the power and wealth of Barca to distribute it as they pleased and were forcing lords to comply and break their oaths under threat of punishment if they don't whilst being overly taxed as an attempt to force them.

"Unjust banishments"– you mean like for expressing loyalty to a different realm and threatening to secede (eventually doing so)

I don't recall any expressions of loyalty to Aurvandil until after the threat to secede, and the threat to secede came when the threat of banishment was levied.

"Old guard hoarding power"– Welcome to Battlemaster

That may be the norm for most realms, but not Aurvandil, we aspire to more than letting an old guard  hoard the power. I purposefully replace my old guard with new nobles when presented with the opportunity, and when suitable on an in character level. As Aurvandil makes an effort to ensure our old guard doesn't simply hold all the power, we take exception to those who do, it's bad governance in our eyes.

"Offering [bounties]"– You have a point on this, if it's true– and I gather some Barcans did in fact confess to this. But if they didn't actually confess, then you can't prove it– bounties are anonymous

The Ambassador and the Suffete both admitted they came from Barca. And OOC it's impossible to prove, IC it isn't, IC things like that are never as simple as just pushing a button and that leaves room for their identity to be compromised or for their to be trail of evidence etc. It's easy to roleplay frame some one for placing a bounty, after all.

Giving a list of words does not mean you told someone what was wrong.

It does if those words are cunning arranged grammatically to form sentence structures which then purvey information to the recipient. You know, a letter where you tell them something.

And there's a fundamental contradiction in saying that you told them "what [you] wanted changing" and your earlier presumption of detached superiority and non-involvement. You can't have it both ways. Either you had an interventionist intent or you did not.

I'm not sure what you're on about there.

Glaumring the Fox

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #866: December 14, 2012, 03:21:00 PM »
Why do you guys argue about the inconsistancy of roleplayed characters? Its a game, if someone wants to make something up to develop their character why does it turn into a big deal? Dont change Mendicant , people here argue because they want to change IG character or actions. Who cares if someone said this and did that, we are corrupt power hungry nobles...
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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #867: December 14, 2012, 05:06:12 PM »
Back on topic please. We're here to talk about the war, not murdered french.

Vellos

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #868: December 14, 2012, 05:42:47 PM »
Not at all, it existed. The corruption of elections to enforce tyranny.

No, it did not. I saw nearly all the messages going around in Barca at this time (which really wasn't that many, relatively speaking; they aren't the chattiest realm). Tyranny was not on anybody's mind. What was on their mind was that they had a realm-within-a-realm that clearly had no interest in the realm's established goals and policies.

The corrupt dukes were hoarding land, colluding together to control the power and wealth of Barca to distribute it as they pleased and were forcing lords to comply and break their oaths under threat of punishment if they don't whilst being overly taxed as an attempt to force them.

Oh gracious. Dukes were hoarding land. You don't say? They were distributing land as they pleased? Dukes were? Really? How corrupt! Imagine that, dukes distributing land as they pleased, and punishing lords when they break their oaths! How ghastly! And imagine dukes using taxes as a way to punish unruly or disruptive lords– that's unthinkable!

Actually, this is exactly how it's supposed to be done. And lords getting angry about it is exactly the response you'd expect, I grant. It's a powerplay by both sides. Sure they will ICly couch it in terms of rights and honor and corruption– but OOCly it's obviously just a run-of-the-mill power play where the lords got bitter that the dukes were more powerful and so, to keep their power and influence, they joined the realm to which they already paid implicit fealty.

I don't recall any expressions of loyalty to Aurvandil until after the threat to secede, and the threat to secede came when the threat of banishment was levied.

No, the Orvandeaux loyalism long predates the ban. Those nobles also favored not enforcing the Treaty of Evanburg as I recall (or, rather, simply complained a lot when it was going to be enforced). Threat to secede also preceded the banishment– though obviously the actual secession came after the banishment. It wouldn't make sense to get banished then THREATEN to secede. The whole in your story here is you've failed to explain why Barca acted the way it did– other than a presumption that they're just terrible, terrible people who like banning good people. But that just doesn't make sense.

That may be the norm for most realms, but not Aurvandil, we aspire to more than letting an old guard  hoard the power. I purposefully replace my old guard with new nobles when presented with the opportunity, and when suitable on an in character level. As Aurvandil makes an effort to ensure our old guard doesn't simply hold all the power, we take exception to those who do, it's bad governance in our eyes.

Which is why your ruler and general are the same as when you were founded, and your main duke, city lord, and ruler are one person who never has to face elections.

Tell me again about your egalitarian society.

But in all seriousness– I agree that encouraging new players to get involved is important and good. Terran does lots of that as well (we routinely give brand new members lordships).

But to argue that a realm is corrupt and needs to be destroyed because its existing lords worked together to keep power (yet still gave multiple lordships to new players?) seems a bit silly. By that standard, every realm should be destroyed.

Then again, Aurvandil is at war with nearly every realm...

I'm not sure what you're on about there.

I was pointing out an inconsistency in the position you have articulated.
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #869: December 14, 2012, 08:05:01 PM »
Consistency is boring... More chaos.
We live lives in beautiful lies...