The Marrocidenian war

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

But all this time of silent... Indeed plagues and fire are being plotted in Candiels!

When our foes don't make fun for us, we make our own fun.

We've been left with pretty much nothing to do but to scheme, so that's what we've been doing.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Too bad its not SMA to hold that attitude and your kingdom has finally decided to join the rest of Dwilight in actually playing the game the way Tom intended it. No one cares if you hate religion in RL and you are a rabid internet Atheist... In BM you love religion, no buts ifs or ands about it. Its not like following an IG religion will somehow sully your OOG holy atheism.

Our In Game attitude has nothing to do with our Out of Game attitude towards religion, not that there is even one unified religious stance amongst the key players of Aurvandil. Were I one to be insulted, I would be that you consider me so shallow as to use Battlemaster as an outlet for some sort of rampant boner for Atheism, which I don't even consider myself anyway. It has also been established what Aurvandil believes in, and that is Monarchism, certain branches of Philosophy and Chivalry. Our disdain for religion In Game was born from the In Game religions and the way they acted, and we decided not to conform to such genericism, which has been a source of much roleplay and In Character happenings, so it's been quite successful and not just some passive aggressive contrarianism.

And no, Aurvandil hasn't joined the rest of Dwilight to play the game "As Tom intended", that would just be predictable. We're just in the opening moves of our plans.

[Norrel]

you consider me so shallow as to use Battlemaster as an outlet for some sort of rampant boner for Atheism

You use BM as an outlet for all your bizarre nihilistic OOC political beliefs, I think it stands to reason to assume the same for your religious ones.

And no, Aurvandil hasn't joined the rest of Dwilight to play the game "As Tom intended"

You mean, like, SMA? Yeah, following the rules sure is predictable.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

You use BM as an outlet for all your bizarre nihilistic OOC political beliefs, I think it stands to reason to assume the same for your religious ones.

Well no, that's just something you reckon to be true because "Sure why not".

You mean, like, SMA? Yeah, following the rules sure is predictable. Wouldn't want to, you know, follow the big bold yellow words that display when you sign up for the continent.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Serious_Medieval_Atmosphere

Just in case you've forgotten what the SMA actually is.

[Norrel]

Well no, that's just something you reckon to be true because "Sure why not".

See:

(blah blah blah elections suck)
And you would suggest we reduce such an incredibly important position to elections? To allow the possibility that some one with no greater intention than to advance their own career and agenda would be able to hold such a position? Madness. The Monarch is more than a simple ruler, he is the essence of everything that is his realm and people. A Monarch is therefore far more important than any elected official, than any politician and any ruler such as a Prime Minister.

And that is why he is not elected, but consented to. The people do not choose their Monarch through elections, but they consent to whether or not that Monarch indeed exemplifies all of the above and more. Consent is far more powerful than any vote, it is far more important than popularity and it is far more representative than any electoral process. The people consent to their Monarch, or they do not, and that ultimately decides on whether or not a Monarch is worthy of ruling them.

Pages ~57 through like ~64 or something of this thread are chock full of this crap - literal OOC argumentation about why democracies aren't representative and other such 1st year poli sci shenanigans. It's pretty clear that BM is your outlet for all this horse!@#$.

But sure I'm just saying all of this stuff because of confirmation bias.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Religion and war are in the game and it does make your realm better to have an army of priests doing your bidding the same as soldiers. Nothing is stopping the Astroists from conducting mass auto-de fes in your lands you have nothing to fight back against the religions of Dwilight decimating your lands with our preaching.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

See:

Pages ~57 through like ~64 or something of this thread are chock full of this crap - literal OOC argumentation about why democracies aren't representative and other such 1st year poli sci shenanigans. It's pretty clear that BM is your outlet for all this horse!@#$.

But sure I'm just saying all of this stuff because of confirmation bias.

If you'll note, I took no part in that debate, save to point out that my In Game Roleplayed government was not reflective of my OOC attitudes and beliefs, as a defence to the accusation that it was. So you have just assumed something to be true because you reckon it could be, on the basis of sure why not.

So you know, no.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Religion and war are in the game and it does make your realm better to have an army of priests doing your bidding the same as soldiers. Nothing is stopping the Astroists from conducting mass auto-de fes in your lands you have nothing to fight back against the religions of Dwilight decimating your lands with our preaching.

Aside from the fact we'd arrest them the moment they arrived, we're pretty good at border control, as we've shown on multiple occasions when priests have tried to do exactly that. Oh, and the indigenous religions, and the foray of foreign religions that crept into our realm that ensures no one has a direct majority and to gain one would require sufficient time for us to deal with a priest.

It's not like we haven't considered such a situation and considered what we would do to when it occurs, and it's not like we haven't handled such situations in the past.

[Norrel]

In response to:

I'm not going to make a detailed reply to Mendicant's points.

Not I say Mendicant, not noblessechevalier. I have a hard time believing that a modern human being actually believes that the argument he is made is logically consistent.

You don't actually think what you're saying makes sense and is true, do you? Like, it makes sense maybe from a late-Medieval perspective that basically ignored most of what we today recognize as fundamental human freedoms, and basic problems of political economy... but I get the impression you think what your saying is true on an OOC level. And that... really shocks me.

You said:

Yes, well you give the impression you believe things such as elections truly safeguard the freedoms and civil liberties of the people, and in turn represents the people, which in this day and age for anyone to still believe such nonsense is shocking, as you would put it.

Slapping an addendum saying "oh hey btw I was just kidding all along lol" doesn't suddenly revoke everything you said, when you explicitly stated, right there, that holding democratic political views OOC in the modern age is shocking. Please don't try to BS me when it takes two clicks to prove otherwise.

I've been immature enough in digging into this flame war already so I'm gonna quit now. Have the last word if you'd like.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

In response to:

You said:

Slapping an addendum saying "oh hey btw I was just kidding all along lol" doesn't suddenly revoke everything you said, when you explicitly stated, right there, that holding democratic political views OOC in the modern age is shocking. Please don't try to BS me when it takes two clicks to prove otherwise.

I've been immature enough in digging into this flame war already so I'm gonna quit now. Have the last word if you'd like.

Oh that's all very darling and such, but I made one statement doubting the representative powers of an election and you go "Look, the Aurvandil government is an allegory for his bizarre OOC political beliefs!" so as I said, you've just assumed something to be true on next to no basis whatsoever, and equally assumed you could make it stick based on a single sentence I posted in which I (My OOC person and not the IG character of Mendicant) doubted modern elections, but in no way connected that on an OOC level to the IG government, ideology or philosophy of Aurvandil. In fact Aurvandil doesn't doubt elections at all, they just believe everyone else to be doing it wrong. So I fail to see how you've come to the conclusion that the Aurvandil system is representative of my own personal beliefs on anything other than the basis of "Yeah I reckon, 'cause why not".

A flame war? I would have called it a debate because that's what it is, not a petty attempt to flame each other, but whatever, if you don't want to held accountable for your accusations then don't make them in the first place.

[Penchant]

Yeah I would call that a flame war. Maybe a bit of an aggressive debate but it was overall pretty civil which is the opposite of a flame war.

[DamnTaffer]

Oh that's all very darling and such, but I made one statement doubting the representative powers of an election and you go "Look, the Aurvandil government is an allegory for his bizarre OOC political beliefs!" so as I said, you've just assumed something to be true on next to no basis whatsoever, and equally assumed you could make it stick based on a single sentence I posted in which I (My OOC person and not the IG character of Mendicant) doubted modern elections, but in no way connected that on an OOC level to the IG government, ideology or philosophy of Aurvandil. In fact Aurvandil doesn't doubt elections at all, they just believe everyone else to be doing it wrong. So I fail to see how you've come to the conclusion that the Aurvandil system is representative of my own personal beliefs on anything other than the basis of "Yeah I reckon, 'cause why not".

A flame war? I would have called it a debate because that's what it is, not a petty attempt to flame each other, but whatever, if you don't want to held accountable for your accusations then don't make them in the first place.

You know... I think your being trolled by Norrel

[Arundel]

.... so as I said, you've just assumed something to be true on next to no basis whatsoever....

Norrel provided you with two quotes of yours, in which the first you outright declared that there are no elections for the ruler's position, while the second highlighted a fervent OOC perspective that granted the first an obvious source of creation. Rebutting with the same statement "you reckon it could be, on the basis of sure why not" does absolutely nothing to disprove Norrel's claims or the things you've said. Stating that they're not true because they're assumptions is an equally crap argument.

Moreover, stating "Aurvandil doesn't doubt elections at all" is utterly pointless and a petty deviation from the primary point. Norrel isn't arguing whether or not Aurvandil "doubts" elections: in all fairness, no one cares. Norrel is arguing that you're possibly tying passionate OOC beliefs to your character and realm, in a fashion that many people obviously disapprove of.

Perhaps providing better arguments than "No, you're wrong, hence you're assuming things and doing it because why not" or "Those two concrete examples aren't proof, hence they're assumptions and obviously stated because why not" will go far as to shed a clearer light on the differences between you, Mendicant, and latter's decisions.

Edit: clearer for better, and to remove accusations of violations of the game rules, as they were not intended in that fashion.

[Vellos]

Norrel is arguing that you're tying passionate OOC beliefs to your character and realm, and thus bending the game's rules in a fashion that many people obviously disapprove of.

Please avoid accusations of violations of the game rules. If you have such accusations, the Magistrates can hear them.

Let's get back on topic, shall we?

So... all's quiet on the southern front...

[Penchant]

Let's get back on topic, shall we?

So... all's quiet on the southern front...

Aurvandil is fixing up their realm or something and we are letting them.