Author Topic: The Marrocidenian war  (Read 547408 times)

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1155: January 19, 2013, 04:35:00 PM »
Why would we take on another fight while we're fighting all of you. Your realm may be a waste of space but we only have so many fly swatters.

D'Hara isn't a waste of space, and we're not even fighting them any more.

And we sort of just did take on another fight whilst "fighting them".

Lychaon

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1156: January 19, 2013, 06:49:23 PM »
If Aurvandil had a mind to take your lands you wouldn't have a realm right now. You only haven't had your lands taken because we chose not to take them, aside from Gallaecia, Kydonia and Celtiberia (I don't see you retaking them). You can't really slag off D'Hara and Terran for having lost land just because you've had it easy and your enemy doesn't want to take your lands. At least they reconquered their lost territory from us.

Barca has no place acting smug because you're relatively intact when it's Terran and D'Hara who have actually been fighting this war on the front lines with all the risks and consequences that have come with it.

If you hadn't noticed, Aurvandil doesn't even bother to fight Barca unless you make a foray into our lands, as your realm and it's regions are detritus to us.

It is good to see you don't have interest in Barca, and I'm glad to read from you "D'Hara reconquered" rather than your so habitual "we just let them take it because that was our plan". As you say, Barca can't do anything to retake the regions you mentioned. However, it's surprising you like to mention them when you got them by giving home to traitors and deserters.

You talk about detritus, but turns out that you seem to like the presence of many detritus of other realms within your borders. You have big armies and plenty of characters to feed your smug attitude, but you aren't quite selective to accept new ones of doubtless reputation and shady origins. It's clear it's the goal what matters rather than the way.

I remember some posts in which you talked contemptuously about the deals Barca have with the Zuma, and seems Mendicant make them too. If the Zuma didn't supported Barca in your invasion I think it was rather due to the fact Barca threw the first stone. And I'd like to add that if it was because of your deals with the Zuma, in your place I wouldn't say it loud after all the boasting on Aurvandil you have had.

Talking about Fissoa, I don't know the whole story but it seems you just shown up with almost 2000 men landing in the core of they realm with no war declaration.

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1157: January 19, 2013, 06:52:39 PM »

Talking about Fissoa, I don't know the whole story but it seems you just shown up with almost 2000 men landing in the core of they realm with no war declaration.

15/1600, but for the rest your assumptions are correct.
Allthough Mendicant sent out a message declaring war just before the landing, he did not officially declare war game mechanics wise.
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Lychaon

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1158: January 19, 2013, 07:06:42 PM »
15/1600, but for the rest your assumptions are correct.
Allthough Mendicant sent out a message declaring war just before the landing, he did not officially declare war game mechanics wise.

I see. I guess that's the way to avoid the squeezed peasants to have some wish of independence for a real war declaration. I am curious to know how much is "just before". The turn before? Enough time to allow the Fissoan nobles fighting in Falkirk to return and defend their lands?

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1159: January 19, 2013, 07:23:31 PM »
I see. I guess that's the way to avoid the squeezed peasants to have some wish of independence for a real war declaration. I am curious to know how much is "just before". The turn before? Enough time to allow the Fissoan nobles fighting in Falkirk to return and defend their lands?

the turn before the landing.
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Indirik

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1160: January 19, 2013, 07:25:06 PM »
Plenty of warning. What more could you want?
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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1161: January 19, 2013, 08:23:56 PM »
The meaning of it, it has never happened before.

And at least this '!@#$ty' ally doesn't allow their lands to be consumed by Aurvandil. Then you would have a much bigger problem.
I apologize for the harsh description of you and your realm in my previous post.
D'Hara isn't a waste of space, and we're not even fighting them any more.

And we sort of just did take on another fight whilst "fighting them".
Thank you for your kind words.
It is good to see you don't have interest in Barca, and I'm glad to read from you "D'Hara reconquered" rather than your so habitual "we just let them take it because that was our plan". As you say, Barca can't do anything to retake the regions you mentioned. However, it's surprising you like to mention them when you got them by giving home to traitors and deserters.

You talk about detritus, but turns out that you seem to like the presence of many detritus of other realms within your borders. You have big armies and plenty of characters to feed your smug attitude, but you aren't quite selective to accept new ones of doubtless reputation and shady origins. It's clear it's the goal what matters rather than the way.

I remember some posts in which you talked contemptuously about the deals Barca have with the Zuma, and seems Mendicant make them too. If the Zuma didn't supported Barca in your invasion I think it was rather due to the fact Barca threw the first stone. And I'd like to add that if it was because of your deals with the Zuma, in your place I wouldn't say it loud after all the boasting on Aurvandil you have had.

Talking about Fissoa, I don't know the whole story but it seems you just shown up with almost 2000 men landing in the core of they realm with no war declaration.
To the detritus stuff, Aurvandil's sees the lords that joined them not as traitors but as lords escaping a corrupt realm that may have put bounties on their own lords. As to Allison, she isn't scum or anything but many see her as a heretic which can equate to the same except that you can't fault a realm for not caring about someone's religious troubles when they believe in a separation of state and religion.

To the Zuma stuff, AFAIK, Mendicant has spoke with the Zuma to find out what of Barca he can attack without the Zuma caring to defend it but there has been no deals as that would be considered dishonorable.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 08:35:11 PM by Penchant »
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dustole

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1162: January 19, 2013, 09:32:19 PM »
Also, Allison is in Aurvandil.  She has a great relationship with the Zuma.  I am quite sure that Aurvandil has little to fear from the Zuma.
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NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1163: January 19, 2013, 10:01:55 PM »
It is good to see you don't have interest in Barca, and I'm glad to read from you "D'Hara reconquered" rather than your so habitual "we just let them take it because that was our plan".

The two stances don't contradict each other, D'Hara did reconquer because we made no effort to defend them. Unless D'Hara has an army larger and stronger than Aurvandil, which they don't, and capable of beating Aurvandil behind a level 5 fortress, or a level 2 motte and bailey, which they can't, then it substantiates the claim that they would never have taken the lands if we made an effort to defend them, which is perfectly true. The lands were a throwaway to buy us time and weren't worth the renewed war to defend.

You talk about detritus, but turns out that you seem to like the presence of many detritus of other realms within your borders. You have big armies and plenty of characters to feed your smug attitude, but you aren't quite selective to accept new ones of doubtless reputation and shady origins. It's clear it's the goal what matters rather than the way.

It's not smugness.

And no, I'm not selective. Anyone can join Aurvandil within reason, so long as they abandon their previous culture and affiliation for the Commonwealth. We're very accepting of foreign nobles, as the original Orvandeaux was a mixture of Liberite's and Madinian's we don't set much astore to ethnicity.

I remember some posts in which you talked contemptuously about the deals Barca have with the Zuma, and seems Mendicant make them too. If the Zuma didn't supported Barca in your invasion I think it was rather due to the fact Barca threw the first stone. And I'd like to add that if it was because of your deals with the Zuma, in your place I wouldn't say it loud after all the boasting on Aurvandil you have had.

Mendicant has made no deals with the Zuma nor has Aurvandil, ever, we simply have an understanding. Which is to say, Mendicant understands what Haktoo will or won't do regarding Barca.

Talking about Fissoa, I don't know the whole story but it seems you just shown up with almost 2000 men landing in the core of they realm with no war declaration.

We wouldn't want to give the Moot enough forewarning to make a competent advance into Aurvandil when we're invading another realm, would we?

We declared war before our arrival, as is the Aurvandilan way. We might have spoken earlier but Blacksheep is famous for refusing any sort of peace talks or negotiations.

I see. I guess that's the way to avoid the squeezed peasants to have some wish of independence for a real war declaration. I am curious to know how much is "just before". The turn before? Enough time to allow the Fissoan nobles fighting in Falkirk to return and defend their lands?

I would have declared war, but I forgot that you can't declare war straight from peace for some reason.

Then I held back on a game mechanics declaration because of negotiations with Luria Nova, Aurvandil doesn't intend a long term war with Fissoa anyway and a game mechanics declaration would rather give the impression we do. We're just jousting Fissoa at the moment.

To the Zuma stuff, AFAIK, Mendicant has spoke with the Zuma to find out what of Barca he can attack without the Zuma caring to defend it but there has been no deals as that would be considered dishonorable.

Exactly that. I just asked her what her treaty was with Barca, she explained, so I pointed out the holes in the treaty that allows me to attack them and she said she would uphold what was written in the treaty and nothing else.

Also, Allison is in Aurvandil.  She has a great relationship with the Zuma.  I am quite sure that Aurvandil has little to fear from the Zuma.

I shall have to make a dynastic marriage, marry Allison off to Haktoo.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 10:05:24 PM by NoblesseChevaleresque »

Vellos

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1164: January 19, 2013, 10:42:22 PM »
Then I held back on a game mechanics declaration because of negotiations with Luria Nova, Aurvandil doesn't intend a long term war with Fissoa anyway and a game mechanics declaration would rather give the impression we do. We're just jousting Fissoa at the moment.

The thing is mate, that doesn't work.

You only intended to joust with Barca too. And you're still at war.

Limited wars only work if both sides want to keep them limited.
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Lychaon

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1165: January 19, 2013, 11:35:11 PM »
The two stances don't contradict each other, D'Hara did reconquer because we made no effort to defend them. Unless D'Hara has an army larger and stronger than Aurvandil, which they don't, and capable of beating Aurvandil behind a level 5 fortress, or a level 2 motte and bailey, which they can't, then it substantiates the claim that they would never have taken the lands if we made an effort to defend them, which is perfectly true. The lands were a throwaway to buy us time and weren't worth the renewed war to defend.

Of course they're not contradictory sentences, but the first one sounded something different from the usual disdain I'm getting used to read from Aurvandilians towards their foes. It couldn't last for long.

And no, I'm not selective. Anyone can join Aurvandil within reason, so long as they abandon their previous culture and affiliation for the Commonwealth. We're very accepting of foreign nobles, as the original Orvandeaux was a mixture of Liberite's and Madinian's we don't set much astore to ethnicity.

As you know, I wasn't talking about ethnic origins. I was pointing that I would expect from a realm with a background supposedly based on chivalry and honour to have more scruples towards nobles accused of treason (in a case) and bribery (in another). As Penchant says, Aurvandilians justified their will to keep those regions with the "corruption" issue that some time ago was discussed here. Penchant, Aurvandil has (as far as I know) impeded the spreading of any religion; I think it's something different from a separation of state and religion, maybe rather an imposed state secularism, which could contradict the acceptation of a noble who wants to create a new religion. Anyway I wasn't talking about giving home to a schismatic or heretic noble within a religion's point of view.

We declared war before our arrival, as is the Aurvandilan way. We might have spoken earlier but Blacksheep is famous for refusing any sort of peace talks or negotiations.

I don't know who "Blacksheep" is, and I guess a turn before can be enough for the Aurvandilian way. Which I guess I'd expect from someone from a realm who doesn't complain regularly because can't get a nice war from his enemies. The "Moot forewarning" reason contradicts an announcement one of your realm-mates made in the forum about the invasion of Fissoa. And if it is actually a reason, it surprises me to see so much prudence from you when not even 1/3 of your nobles went for tourism there, and later you challenged in this topic your enemies to attack you in your own lands. And as you know, "jousting" talks about combats under equally conditions amongst gentlemen, rather than furtive landing attacks against a surprised enemy.

Regarding Mendicant's conversations with the Zuma, you say you don't bother about Barca but it seems you "look for the holes on a treaty" to know how to inflict damage to an enemy with no reprisals. Very chivalric indeed.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1166: January 20, 2013, 12:11:12 AM »
Of course they're not contradictory sentences, but the first one sounded something different from the usual disdain I'm getting used to read from Aurvandilians towards their foes. It couldn't last for long.

You shouldn't take the disdain so personally. It's not an act of contempt as you seem to think it is, it's what the English refer to as a Cavalier attitude, which is to say an attitude of offhand disregard and being more non chalant about things as they occur.

As you know, I wasn't talking about ethnic origins. I was pointing that I would expect from a realm with a background supposedly based on chivalry and honour to have more scruples towards nobles accused of treason (in a case) and bribery (in another). As Penchant says, Aurvandilians justified their will to keep those regions with the "corruption" issue that some time ago was discussed here. Penchant, Aurvandil has (as far as I know) impeded the spreading of any religion; I think it's something different from a separation of state and religion, maybe rather an imposed state secularism, which could contradict the acceptation of a noble who wants to create a new religion. Anyway I wasn't talking about giving home to a schismatic or heretic noble within a religion's point of view.

We accepted the nobles because they asked for our protection, and were fleeing political persecution. We don't accept criminals or rogues or outlaws.

Any noble who joins Aurvandil does so accepting the consequence that they keep their religion personal, restricted to their beliefs and household.

I don't know who "Blacksheep" is

Nor do I mate.
and I guess a turn before can be enough for the Aurvandilian way. Which I guess I'd expect from someone from a realm who doesn't complain regularly because can't get a nice war from his enemies.

We're not fighting Fissoa for a good war, we're fighting them for a good reason. Thus, we adopt a policy of brutal efficiency to resolve it as soon as possible without regard for enjoyment.

The "Moot forewarning" reason contradicts an announcement one of your realm-mates made in the forum about the invasion of Fissoa. And if it is actually a reason, it surprises me to see so much prudence from you when not even 1/3 of your nobles went for tourism there, and later you challenged in this topic your enemies to attack you in your own lands. And as you know, "jousting" talks about combats under equally conditions amongst gentlemen, rather than furtive landing attacks against a surprised enemy.

The Moot forewarning wasn't really the reason, it was more of an offhand remark that it was one of the benefits.

The jousting phrase was a colloquialism, which is to say we're sparring rather than fighting properly.

Regarding Mendicant's conversations with the Zuma, you say you don't bother about Barca but it seems you "look for the holes on a treaty" to know how to inflict damage to an enemy with no reprisals. Very chivalric indeed.

We spoke with Haktoo to see to what extent we may conduct warfare without breaching the sanctuary she granted them, we have no cause for war with the Zuma and we would not attack them so as to attack our other foe. One does not attack a retainer without it being an attack upon his liege, so to speak.

And you shouldn't try to use what I say directly OOC to reflect on our IC, because I speak much more informally about it from an OOC perspective.

NoblesseChevaleresque

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1167: January 20, 2013, 12:15:20 AM »
The thing is mate, that doesn't work.

You only intended to joust with Barca too. And you're still at war.

Limited wars only work if both sides want to keep them limited.

Aye, but this situation is different.

Fissoa can't attack us if they continue a war with Falkirk, and by all accounts they're desperate to see Falkirk conquered. ]

And to be fair, I'm not really at war with Barca, more Barca's allies, and we can't be bothered as things are to enact a peace or destruction process with Barca, so as to bring peace. But then again, maybe I ought to. The only thing that seems to hold Barca in the Moot is the stance of war between us, remove that and the Moot will lose its unifying aspect.

But, I imagine Barca will be all Madina about it and refuse a peace where they keep their lands even when they're on their death bed. Inconvenient defiance for no good end.

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1168: January 20, 2013, 12:41:13 AM »
Barca was part of the 'moot since way before Aurvandil was around. To claim that the war is the only thing keep the 'moot together is rather ridiculous.
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JeVondair

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Re: The Marrocidenian war
« Reply #1169: January 20, 2013, 01:06:31 AM »
To be perfectly frank, I have no idea what the Moot is doing, OOC or IC  :-\
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