OG/Sint: WTF?!

[Indirik]

Sint's alliance to daimons for two invasions *was* a matter of survival. Refusing to side with the daimons in the 3rd or 4th invasion would have been the death of Sint.

Also, I understand that Gethsemene belonged to Sint before OG.

Also, asking for it to be handed to OG so that Sint and OG could both have the same number of cities? That really made me laugh.

[Turner]

That wasnt the reason why OG asked for Gethsemene back.

[Draco Tanos]

Also, I understand that Gethsemene belonged to Sint before OG.

This is wrong.  When Sint was founded in Fianik, OG's northern/northeastern borders were Fikman and Haji.  So yes, in 2005 OG had Gethsemene and maintained that control until late-ish 2007 when the Daimons invaded and drove OG's northeastern regions rogue, letting their allies in Sint take the lands without getting their hands dirty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCqxoaZx7qY&feature=youtu.be
Proof if you need it, actually.

[Turner]

Also considering that Sint managed to reclaim a number of regions in the North-West, including their original city of Fianik, with the removal of the blight every realm has benefitted and managed to take back regions, except for Old Grehk, Melhed and Fronen somewhat. that is why OG has asked for Gethsemene back. It is OG's former capital and we still have a strong and legitimate claim to it.

[Indirik]

That wasnt the reason why OG asked for Gethsemene back.

Maybe not "the"reason, but it featured prominently in the request. "This way, we'll both have three cities, so we'll both be the same size." Literally, that was part of the justification for handing it back. The letter pretty much put that justification on the same level as "It used to be our capital."

When Sint was founded in Fianik, OG's northern/northeastern borders were Fikman and Haji.  So yes, in 2005 OG had Gethsemene and maintained that control until late-ish 2007 when the Daimons invaded and drove OG's northeastern regions rogue, letting their allies in Sint take the lands without getting their hands dirty.

Sint was founded before I started playing. I vaguely remember that time on BT. That was back when Lorgan, then-ruler of OG, sent OG into several wars just for the fun of it.

When I played on BT previously, I was ruler of KoA in the far south. Didn't really pay too much attention to the north. My current character opposed the transfer back to OG on religious grounds. As a theocracy of Hemaism, we couldn't possibly let such a large and prosperous city be turned over to a realm that has a different state religion, and harbors religions that consider ours as evil. Evil must be exterminated.

Rally, we need a few good wars. This sounds like a great opportunity for it.

[Solari]

I vaguely remember that time on BT. That was back when Lorgan, then-ruler of OG, sent OG into several wars just for the fun of it.

Those who were there refer to those years as The Good Times. When noob knights made 250 gold per week and there was so much gold sloshing around in the coffers that wars were basically excuses to spend it.

I miss those days.

[Lorgan]

When it's a matter of survival?

It was a matter of survival during the 3d invasion when Sint and the Netherworld warred OG. OG just wanted to defeat Fronen, it's survival wasn't threatened until they allied with Sint.

After all, Thalmarkin and BK betrayed OG (because they wanted land, but we'll pretend their 'SINT BAD!' argument was valid, even though an alliance with Sint wouldn't have been necessary if they honored their alliances and their own histories and sided with OG against Fronen), not leaving much of an option otherwise.

Thalmarkin honoured it's alliance. BK was never allied with OG but with Fronen in stead so they actually honoured their alliance too. OG's other ally was Melhed, so no surprises there that they didn't rush to our aid.
Anyway, Thalmarkin wasn't that strong and OG made the worst military decisions I've ever seen. In the trend of "Run with your head into the wall long enough and maybe it'll crack!". Of course, the wall didn't crack first.
So you can hardly blame OG for looking for stronger allies to defeat Fronen and you can't blame Thalmarkin for refusing to associate with Sint so soon after the third invasion. There was of course another option, suggested by Fronen (those were the days they didn't have terribly incompetent rulers), to end the war, allowing Fronen to have yipin and Vore and all joining together against Sint. Which OG refused and then went on to buddy up to Sint in stead against the wishes of it's allies, which was when I took my knights to Thalmarkin and ended up raiding Ossmat and playing an elemental part in the conquest of Vatrona. Hoping to maybe refound Ashborn, but that obviously didn't work.

Sint was founded before I started playing. I vaguely remember that time on BT. That was back when Lorgan, then-ruler of OG, sent OG into several wars just for the fun of it.

War=fun. More war=more fun.

[Draco Tanos]

And I enjoyed torturing and/or executing every enemy that ended up in my dugneons too, Lorgan.  Was always sad you didn't end up there.
Though I tended to show Thalmarkians a bit more mercy than I did Fronenites...  But you were enemy number one for your backstabbing of OG.

Now, you know, I've heard conflicting stories.  From YOU before and others.  "Sint and the Netherworld warred OG."  For the longest time we were told Netherworld was the one attacking us and Sint just gobbled up the rogues.  Now you're claiming they BOTH attacked us?

You claim Thalmarkin honored its alliance, but never once did they send soldiers to aid us.  They were too busy pushing "Give Fronen everything they want and let's go attack Sint instead!"  Yeah, sure sounded like they were on our side.  And I agree, Kane was a horrible general.  I wished my execution was successful, but he managed to get out of it and fled back to Fronen. 

BK?  Well, they owed their very existence to OG.  We're the ones that always gave them a hand when they needed it.  Yes, I consider that a betrayal.

[mikm]

I say Sint went too easy on OG. Why give those lands without making some demands?
Like drop all pretentions regarding this new colony for instance.

[Indirik]

The leadership of Sint thought that they had to honor their alliance with OG by giving them back.

Also, keeping them, or trying to, would probably have drawn Sint into a lopsided war. And there's no way we could have kept them anyway, given the geography.

[Turner]

I say Sint went too easy on OG. Why give those lands without making some demands?
Like drop all pretentions regarding this new colony for instance.

Just like OG was way too easy on Sint by returning Gethsemene to you right?

In either case, if Sint wasn't going to return them, OG was fully ready for that possibility.

[Blue Star]

Interesting interesting

I personally think the issue here is on both sides of the table I mean some occ things are coming into play over their in OG. IC and OOC are I guess hard for some to separate. Sad someone would take it that far OCC.

[Lorgan]

And I enjoyed torturing and/or executing every enemy that ended up in my dugneons too, Lorgan.  Was always sad you didn't end up there.
Though I tended to show Thalmarkians a bit more mercy than I did Fronenites...  But you were enemy number one for your backstabbing of OG.

Hehe. I had a 1K bounty on me too in those days.

Now, you know, I've heard conflicting stories.  From YOU before and others.  "Sint and the Netherworld warred OG."  For the longest time we were told Netherworld was the one attacking us and Sint just gobbled up the rogues.  Now you're claiming they BOTH attacked us?

You're right. Sint didn't actually war Old Grehk but they were at war with us in factuality, it was just the daimons doing the fighting for them. Peace was negotiated with Sint, not with the daimons. Also, I'm 99% sure that Sint did march against Ashborn on the side of the daimons.
Oh and let's not forget that's not the only time they marched together. I remember being in a rogue Gethsemene when Sint marched in to take it, their daimon-god Hastur at the head.

So anyway, they didn't directly attack us but that doesn't mean they're not to blame for the attack.

You claim Thalmarkin honored its alliance, but never once did they send soldiers to aid us.

Thalmarkin did send soldiers but I don't think it was ever higher than 6-7k CS. Mindlessly attacking Yipinalke over and over again is of course not the best motivation to return though.
Not to take all the credit here, but Thalmarkin really was in a deplorable state when I joined. No nobles, no decent RCs, constant monster and undead spawnings in the badlands. It took a little work to turn it around. The nobles I took with me helped of course but also we chose to let a few of the unmanageable badlands go rogue, organized the army better, organized funding better... all the things that nobody'd let me do in OG.
Thalmarkin was far from the powerhouse it was during the recent invasion and while they did help OG, they indeed didn't do much and they did so reluctantly since they wanted that idiotic war (as you know, Zog declared it without any preparation or even telling our nobles, I highly doubt he talked to our allies about it) to be over so a real war, against Sint, could be fought. A wish I of course strongly encouraged in my many correspondences with Northern rulers.

They were too busy pushing "Give Fronen everything they want and let's go attack Sint instead!"  Yeah, sure sounded like they were on our side.

Not everything, we could've kept Vozzessdor that way. And not just because I wouldn't have left with it then.

BK?  Well, they owed their very existence to OG.  We're the ones that always gave them a hand when they needed it.  Yes, I consider that a betrayal.

I suppose. I don't really remember that though.

[mikm]

The true powerhouse, during this last invasion was Riombara. Don't forget Thalmarkin had a multirealm blob helping at all times. They were screaming for help like mad.
Riombara handled the war perty much alone.
If the south front had crumbled, more lands would have been taken by Netherworld in the end- sunk I mean. The west and east of the island were perty much lost.

[Lorgan]

Who says there can be only one powerhouse?

Also:

They were screaming for help like mad.

I just can't let this fly.

Rio: one daimon lord. (Overlord came by once but I can't remember if that was simultaneous with the Southern daimon lord, does anyone remember?)
Thalmarkin: 3-4 daimon lords.

Daimons learned to travel in pack in Thalmarkin lands. Throughout the entire invasion, there's not been one daimon lord who stayed in our lands alone and remained undefeated for long. Most just passed through and found our army on their tail from the moment they passed through till the moment they were defeated.

And about screaming for help. No one did that.
I yelled at Sint for being utterly useless and for irritating the hell out of me. Sint didn't do anything useful from the time they lost Firbalt to the time I yelled at them. And when Overlord was genociding Unger, they went to reclaim Firbalt. Speaking of the last drop...
Realms came to Pomatim, to Jedinchel, to Winifael and to Unger because it was the smartest thing to do, not because we played the damsel in distress. Damsels usually don't have 27K of mobile CS already at their service (right before Overlord's siege of Unger).