Author Topic: Why is socialism such a bad word?  (Read 21265 times)

Gustav Kuriga

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Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Topic Start: October 18, 2012, 07:05:47 PM »
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from: Uzamaki on Today at 04:42:41 AM
Uh. Do they not realize Canada has socialized medicine as well?

This is why we laugh at them pretty hard.

Why do people in the US think that socialism is such a horrible thing when the very thing they support the most, Social Security, is basically socialism defined?

Zakilevo

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #1: October 18, 2012, 07:14:33 PM »
Maybe they associate socialism with communism?

Communism = Soviet = Enemy? ;)

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #2: October 18, 2012, 07:17:04 PM »
Yes, but socialism ISN'T communism. No matter how much certain people would like us to think it is.

Anaris

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #3: October 18, 2012, 07:26:28 PM »
Furthermore, communism isn't what most people in the US think of as communism.

When you say "socialism" or "communism" to most Americans, they think "Soviet Russia, Maoist China, North Korea".

By and large, those countries were not so much socialist as totalitarian—and it's the totalitarianism and the drive to maintain it that caused the problems and the terrible abuses and atrocities.

(Actually, sadly enough, if you said "socialism" or "communism" to far too many Americans, they'd think "Hitler." But that's another story.)

So that's the first part of the problem. The second part is that somehow (I can't say I understand exactly how), the far right wing in the US has, over the past 3-4 decades, managed to sell the idea that all wealth that people have they earned with the sweat of their brow, and that therefore, anyone who's poor (and thus would need the services that are, collectively, socialist) must simply not be working hard enough. Also, the only way to raise the money for those services is to steal it from the honest, hard-working Americans.

And yes, this glosses over the fact that the wealth in this country has become absurdly tilted toward the super-rich (vastly more so than in the Gilded Age of the late 19th century), and that at least a significant fraction of them, if not a clear majority (don't have numbers in front of me) obtained their money not by the sweat of their brow, but by inheriting it, getting lucrative jobs as high executives because of who they know and where they went to school, and, increasingly, exploiting various oddities in the financial system.

My best guess/understanding of how this manages to convince so many Americans to vote against what is demonstrably in their best financial interests is that there is a section of the population of America that wants things to be made very easy for the rich because they either honestly believe they will become rich someday, or just have some kind of vain, hopeless dream of it.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Perth

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #4: October 18, 2012, 07:31:44 PM »
when the very thing they support the most, Social Security,

Hm... you know very little about American politics if you think the "thing [Americans] support the most" is Social Security. It's a very divided issue with a lot of different opinions and view points surrounding it and what should be done about/with it.
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Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #5: October 18, 2012, 07:47:29 PM »
well, I wouldn't say it's universally supported in the current form, but it isn't something most people want completely gotten rid of either...

egamma

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #6: October 18, 2012, 08:02:25 PM »
(Actually, sadly enough, if you said "socialism" or "communism" to far too many Americans, they'd think "Hitler." But that's another story.)

What political party was Hitler a member of? Oh, that's right, the  National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Germany wasn't really socialist, but you have to admit, having the word "socialist" in the party name...

Perth

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #7: October 18, 2012, 08:38:13 PM »
What political party was Hitler a member of? Oh, that's right, the  National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Germany wasn't really socialist, but you have to admit, having the word "socialist" in the party name...


It's funny, you can actually find posters where they emphasized different parts of the party name depending on their audience.

Speaking to a labor union? It's the National Socialist German Worker's Party!

Speaking to a right-wring Freikorps? It's the National Socialist German Worker's Party!

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Perth

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #8: October 18, 2012, 08:42:32 PM »
By and large, those countries were not so much socialist as totalitarian—and it's the totalitarianism and the drive to maintain it that caused the problems and the terrible abuses and atrocities.

Granted, this is largely because socialism and communism by necessity require levels of totalitarianism. When you try to implement a system to the extremity at which those regimes tried to implement it then by necessity the totalitarianism that comes with it becomes more extreme.


You can never have a socialist or communist system that isn't totalitarian in some way. Unless, of course, it's a completely voluntary association of individuals living in a commune-type environment.
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Anaris

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #9: October 18, 2012, 08:51:09 PM »
What political party was Hitler a member of? Oh, that's right, the  National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Germany wasn't really socialist, but you have to admit, having the word "socialist" in the party name...

But they were actually fascists.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #10: October 18, 2012, 09:02:37 PM »
Granted, this is largely because socialism and communism by necessity require levels of totalitarianism. When you try to implement a system to the extremity at which those regimes tried to implement it then by necessity the totalitarianism that comes with it becomes more extreme.


You can never have a socialist or communist system that isn't totalitarian in some way. Unless, of course, it's a completely voluntary association of individuals living in a commune-type environment.

Erm...I suppose one might be able to argue that, by stretching the definition of "totalitarian" somewhat.

And yes, true communism really is people living voluntarily together in a commune. Any kind of central government makes it no longer truly communist (at least, based on my understanding of communism).

Socialism does require a central government, but does not require totalitarianism, unless you want to define any level of government control as being "partly totalitarian," much as the social programs enacted in the US over the past century+ make us "partly socialist".
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Zakilevo

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #11: October 18, 2012, 09:08:34 PM »
Erm...I suppose one might be able to argue that, by stretching the definition of "totalitarian" somewhat.

And yes, true communism really is people living voluntarily together in a commune. Any kind of central government makes it no longer truly communist (at least, based on my understanding of communism).

Socialism does require a central government, but does not require totalitarianism, unless you want to define any level of government control as being "partly totalitarian," much as the social programs enacted in the US over the past century+ make us "partly socialist".

Yep. Communism works in a small scale, small communities and villages, but it falls apart in a big scale, provinces and countries.

China, North Korea and Soviet Russia were not true communist countries as everyone became poor except their ruling classes. :p

Anaris

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #12: October 18, 2012, 09:16:14 PM »
Yep. Communism works in a small scale, small communities and villages, but it falls apart in a big scale, provinces and countries.

China, North Korea and Soviet Russia were not true communist countries as everyone became poor except their ruling classes. :p

Indeed.

Interestingly, one of the longest-lived and most successful utopian more-or-less-communist societies from the late 19th century was right near where I live: the Oneida Community mansion is just about half an hour's drive from here, and my family knows people who are descended from the original inhabitants.

Studying its history strongly indicates that the death of such societies occurs when the number of members who did not join voluntarily reaches a critical mass—that is, in most cases, those who were born into it. However, the Oneida Community grew to (IIRC) over 300 members at its peak, and when it dissolved as a community, it continued as a company producing tableware products that remains highly successful to this day.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Zakilevo

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #13: October 18, 2012, 09:25:52 PM »
Indeed.

Interestingly, one of the longest-lived and most successful utopian more-or-less-communist societies from the late 19th century was right near where I live: the Oneida Community mansion is just about half an hour's drive from here, and my family knows people who are descended from the original inhabitants.

Studying its history strongly indicates that the death of such societies occurs when the number of members who did not join voluntarily reaches a critical mass—that is, in most cases, those who were born into it. However, the Oneida Community grew to (IIRC) over 300 members at its peak, and when it dissolved as a community, it continued as a company producing tableware products that remains highly successful to this day.

There is a Hutterite community in my province. They eat under the same roof and stuff. I've only heard about them from my professor but apparently they are the closest thing to a communist community. They would be a very interesting group to meet.

Jim

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Re: Why is socialism such a bad word?
« Reply #14: October 19, 2012, 02:19:47 AM »
This is why we laugh at them pretty hard.

Why do people in the US think that socialism is such a horrible thing when the very thing they support the most, Social Security, is basically socialism defined?

'Cause this is Murika. Our media distort facts and over complicates things for those who want to be told want to think. I remember watching the news and this guy was at a pro-Obama rally when he walked up to an anti-Obama protestor. She declared Obama a Communist, and when the reporter asked why she replied "Study up buddy! The facts are there, Study up!" he repeated the question "How is Obama a Communist?" She stalled and replied once again "Because he is! STUDY UP BUDDY!" She clearly watches too much Fox news.

She was an older woman, and there is still a trace of the Red Scare in this country amongst our older folks. I think the answer to your question is that Americans are either happy with being told what to think by our media masters or are too lazy or busy to actually STUDY UP, BUDDY!

There is a Hutterite community in my province. They eat under the same roof and stuff. I've only heard about them from my professor but apparently they are the closest thing to a communist community. They would be a very interesting group to meet.

Ever watch the show "The Hutterites" the acting is amazingly bad. The worst episode I saw was when the one chick wanted an I-Pad so she got a job and we were all proud of her. That show is still slightly amusing if you're like me and like watching shows and movies with bad acting for !@#$s and giggles.