OOC Accusations of cheating on the Forum

[BattleMaster Server]

Summary:	OOC Accusations of cheating on the Forum
Violation:	Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating
World:	Beluaterra
Complainer:	Matthew G
About:	Aaron Champion

Full Complaint Text:

   Solari accused a group of nobles publicly of cheating on the forum. Rather than using the correct channels of titans / magistrates he chose to publicly declare the players cheating on the forum.

   Forum post: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3352.0.html

   A precident has been set for OOC accusations of cheating IG:

   http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1389.msg29619.html#msg29619 p>

   Â 

[Vellos]

For Magistrates reading this– let's see if we can't expedite it a wee bit. Seems to me the primary issues at hand for the public thread are questions of fact.

Can we get clarity on what actually happened? Could Solari, or the accuser, or someone else, please give us a synopsis of the events?

As I understand it, Solari OOC banned several characters from Solaria for some kind of multi-accounting or clanning or something, and they migrated to D'Hara, and remain there– D'Hara is not aware of their status apparently? Meanwhile, Solari has made public statements to the effect that they are cheaters.

Is the above correct? I would appreciate either side firming up the details.

[Vellos]

Also:

This thread WILL be moderated. I shall take delight in deleting extraneous posts. We're trying to expedite the Magistrate case process, and we fully intend to accomplish that goal.

[Jim]

My reaction to what Solari said about the D'haran refugees occurred after the second time he spat out an accusation. For me, the reason I was angered by this was not only by the fact that he made a blanketed accusation that fell upon myself and 4 other people (That I know of) of cheating. But also for his downplaying of it and continued provocation after the first accusation. In his response to me asking if I was done embarrassing myself, he stated, after the blanketed accusations, that it was only one person he was accusing. Yet the first accusation directed at the D'haran refugees was "You mean the OOC friends and cheaters?" If it were one person he was accusing it would have been written like this "You mean the multi-account cheater?" The second accusation was "They're buying what they're selling." The second accusation was vague but still implies that we were cheating and that there were multiple cheaters. So it was many at first and then one after he was called out? Clearly he is downplaying his accusations because he was trying to sway OOC and IC opinion of D'hara and its players for his IC gains. Just read the threads, it's very obvious because there could be no other motivation behind the accusations, unless its stupidity, and one thing Aaron is not, is stupid. We've all seen his propaganda on the forums, but this time he stepped it up. Regardless of his response to me, he threw out a blanketed comment that accused many people of cheating, twice. Then he responded like he was above the rules and in an extremely smug way. It should be noted the first accusation was in response to a discussion about the D'haran refugees.

As for the multicheater, I was unaware of it and according to him it makes me wrong for being angry with him but his accusations were blanketed and targeted many. I had every right to be angry with him, even if I was wrong after the fact, he still accused me and others of cheating, even if he worded it wrong.

I've said my piece, I will let you come to your own conclusions. Thank you for hearing me out.

[Vellos]

My reaction to what Solari said about the D'haran refugees occurred after the second time he spat out an accusation. For me, the reason I was angered by this was not only by the fact that he made a blanketed accusation that fell upon myself and 4 other people (That I know of) of cheating. But also for his downplaying of it and continued provocation after the first accusation. In his response to me asking if I was done embarrassing myself, he stated, after the blanketed accusations, that it was only one person he was accusing. Yet the first accusation directed at the D'haran refugees was "You mean the OOC friends and cheaters?" If it were one person he was accusing it would have been written like this "You mean the multi-account cheater?" The second accusation was "They're buying what they're selling." The second accusation was vague but still implies that we were cheating and that there were multiple cheaters. So it was many at first and then one after he was called out?

This is useful information.

---

My follow up question, then, is this– you state that you and 4 others are accused of cheating. I do not know the background here– are you the nobles that, as I understand it, were OOC banned from Solaria? Or were you IC banned?

Clearly he is downplaying his accusations because he was trying to sway OOC and IC opinion of D'hara and its players for his IC gains. Just read the threads, it's very obvious because there could be no other motivation behind the accusations, unless its stupidity, and one thing Aaron is not, is stupid. We've all seen his propaganda on the forums, but this time he stepped it up. Regardless of his response to me, he threw out a blanketed comment that accused many people of cheating, twice. Then he responded like he was above the rules and in an extremely smug way. It should be noted the first accusation was in response to a discussion about the D'haran refugees.

As for the multicheater, I was unaware of it and according to him it makes me wrong for being angry with him but his accusations were blanketed and targeted many. I had every right to be angry with him, even if I was wrong after the fact, he still accused me and others of cheating, even if he worded it wrong.

I've said my piece, I will let you come to your own conclusions. Thank you for hearing me out.

This is an example of useless information. I have opted not to moderate it away in the interest of leaving a "case study" of useless and provocative material which should not have been posted.

Magistrates don't ask questions because we want lawyers to represent the arguments; we have some pretty significant difference of opinion within the Magistrates. We ask questions because we want facts. Please, all commenters, stick to the facts– the Magistrates will debate questions about jurisdiction and precedent and such internally, as we always do; and imputations of intent, positive or negative, are practically irrelevant.

[Jim]

This is useful information.

---

My follow up question, then, is this– you state that you and 4 others are accused of cheating. I do not know the background here– are you the nobles that, as I understand it, were OOC banned from Solaria? Or were you IC banned?

This is an example of useless information. I have opted not to moderate it away in the interest of leaving a "case study" of useless and provocative material which should not have been posted.

Magistrates don't ask questions because we want lawyers to represent the arguments; we have some pretty significant difference of opinion within the Magistrates. We ask questions because we want facts. Please, all commenters, stick to the facts– the Magistrates will debate questions about jurisdiction and precedent and such internally, as we always do; and imputations of intent, positive or negative, are practically irrelevant.

I was IC banned, along with one other, I believe one switched his region over before he was banned, and I know there was another that left later on, if he was banned or not I am unsure because I lost contact with the group all together. The last one was a name I saw in Solaria that is now in D'hara, I have no idea what caused his leave but he was a Solarian that went to D'hara and someone from D'hara reading the forum with the accusation could look at the background of this character and assume that this person was one of the D'haran refugees. Anyone in D'hara that came from Solaria could be grouped into this accusation.

I do remember an ooc ban way before all of this, if that's what Solari is talking about, it was a long time ago and I have no idea where this person left to, nor do I remember his name or family name. This was the only ooc ban I can remember from my time there, if there was another ooc ban after I left, I am unaware of it. The IC and OOC bans were legit, I don't think anyone would argue that, but you read the first half of my statement so I hope this helps.

[Tom]

Rule possibly violated:

§2 "Fair Play"
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Social_Contract

Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence.

This should be a really simple and straighforward case. Questions to answer:

• was a public accusation of cheating (etc) made?
• was it made without proof or evidence?

If both answers are "yes", it is a violation of the social contract. If one of them is not, it is not.

[Tom]

I would also like to point out that strictly speaking, it would have been the responsibility of the original poster to specify this rule, as the Magistrate screen explicitly says that the complainer needs to specify which rule he thinks was violated.

That is not just nitpicking. This is one of the things that would speed up Magistrate cases. Quite frankly, any case that is not fully formed should be flat-out rejected. What's the point of having players complain that Magistrates take forever when part of the time is needed to get cleaned up what the case should be about?

[Chenier]

Rule possibly violated:

§2 "Fair Play"
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Social_Contract

This should be a really simple and straighforward case. Questions to answer:

• was a public accusation of cheating (etc) made?
• was it made without proof or evidence?

If both answers are "yes", it is a violation of the social contract. If one of them is not, it is not.

Solari isn't being very clear on this, though. He didn't provide proof along with the accusation, but apparently it was a titan case that we are all blissfully unaware of over here. Though I consider it against the spirit of the social contract, calling someone who was convicted by the titans for cheating a "cheater" is not defamatory, it's just reality.

However, I doubt that all of those who joined D'Hara from the Lurias cheated in this manner: they came from various realms at various times. A single case was referred to concerning the titans. This generalization is defamatory to these people.

I also don't really see anything dirty on the family histories of our most recent additions, either.

[Anaris]

I think it is important to provide Solari's original remark, in context:

Civilized isn't what all of those Solarian exiles would describe the Lurias as.

You mean the cheaters and OOC buddies? I can't imagine why they'd have a poor opinion of us.

As Chénier says, this statement is not clear. However, from the wording of both posts, it seems something of a stretch to claim that Solari was referring to all Solarian exiles as cheaters. For one thing, his post makes a distinction between "cheaters" and "OOC buddies". For another, by the wording of Chénier's post that he was replying to, the strong implication was that some of the Solarian exiles would not describe the Lurias as civilized, and thus only some would be among those that Solari was referring to.

I do not see what Chénier describes as a "generalization...defamatory to these people"—at least, not unless someone deliberately chooses to see themselves as being among the group described by Solari.

[Chenier]

I think it is important to provide Solari's original remark, in context:

You mean the cheaters and OOC buddies? I can't imagine why they'd have a poor opinion of us.


As Chénier says, this statement is not clear. However, from the wording of both posts, it seems something of a stretch to claim that Solari was referring to all Solarian exiles as cheaters. For one thing, his post makes a distinction between "cheaters" and "OOC buddies". For another, by the wording of Chénier's post that he was replying to, the strong implication was that some of the Solarian exiles would not describe the Lurias as civilized, and thus only some would be among those that Solari was referring to.

I do not see what Chénier describes as a "generalization...defamatory to these people"—at least, not unless someone deliberately chooses to see themselves as being among the group described by Solari.

Many exiles came from the Lurias at various times, from various realms (though having passed through Solaria at some point or another). ALL of them have spread a dark image of the Lurias and particularily of Solaria.

I find it doubtful that they are all OOC buddies. Should it be the case, that's not really cheating it itself. However, he said "cheaterS". Plural. Suggesting they are all both cheaters and OOC conspirators. I find that the wording tends to leave one to believe that all of those who joined D'Hara and once resided in Solaria are cheaters.

[Anaris]

Many exiles came from the Lurias at various times, from various realms (though having passed through Solaria at some point or another). ALL of them have spread a dark image of the Lurias and particularily of Solaria.

I find it doubtful that they are all OOC buddies. Should it be the case, that's not really cheating it itself. However, he said "cheaterS". Plural. Suggesting they are all both cheaters and OOC conspirators. I find that the wording tends to leave one to believe that all of those who joined D'Hara and once resided in Solaria are cheaters.

...Did I, or did I not, just say that based on the context, his remarks do not indicate that he was talking about all those who came from the Lurias to D'Hara, but only about a subset?

[Chenier]

...Did I, or did I not, just say that based on the context, his remarks do not indicate that he was talking about all those who came from the Lurias to D'Hara, but only about a subset?

You claimed that. But I hardly come to the same conclusion from the quotes you presented. I said "the Lurian exiles", to which he retorted "those cheaters and abusers?"

Unless you assume "exile" only referred to people punished by a ruler's exiled button? 'cause I certainly don't. Exiles can be self-imposed.

[Anaris]

You claimed that. But I hardly come to the same conclusion from the quotes you presented. I said "the Lurian exiles", to which he retorted "those cheaters and abusers?"

Unless you assume "exile" only referred to people punished by a ruler's exiled button? 'cause I certainly don't. Exiles can be self-imposed.

OK, here's how I read the exchange.

You: "Some of the Lurian exiles would not describe Luria as a civilized place."

Solari: "Well, I would hardly expect those of them who are cheaters and/or OOC buddies to do so. Were they who you meant?"

[Chenier]

OK, here's how I read the exchange.

You: "Some of the Lurian exiles would not describe Luria as a civilized place."

Solari: "Well, I would hardly expect those of them who are cheaters and/or OOC buddies to do so. Were they who you meant?"

I did not meant "some". I did not write any nuance in that comment (mind you, I rarely nuance my words). In this case, I really did mean "all of the lurian exiles don't consider the Lurias to be a civilized place". All of those that I heard of, at least, and I think I heard them all speak. In any case, I really was referring to all of them.